Bloody hell BBC

[WorkingItOutAsIGo]

Reading the BBC news online this morning and there is not one, but two stories about transgender people. One promoting the transition of a small child, and the other promoting sport for transgender athletes. The latter in particular looks like a direct attempt to counter the news discussion over the last few days in sport.

This isn’t news, it’s wartime propaganda.

But, Tommy is accusing the BBC of conspiring with left wing groups to create a negative picture of him.

I don’t think left wing groups are necessary. He does that all by himself.

The stuff about teen girls being taught to dress, apply make up and present naicely by older female relatives smacks of AGPs fetishising girlhood to me...

Not really considering this came from a female who's homosexual but has a lot of involvement with the trans community due to LGBT groups. It is true though if you think about it. Not just by older female relatives but by all relatives, friends etc. I'm a heterosexual female with no interest in make-up and as such was never shown how to do it (and therefore haven't the slightest idea!). I did have friends who went through the looking a bit ridiculous phase as teenagers as they experimented with their individuality but then grew out of it whereas trans people rarely have that opportunity.

explaining to Autumn that they will never be a mother because it is biologically impossible?

I sort of get what you're saying but are you saying then that a female who is infertile will never be a mother as it's biologically impossible? Curious as to where people draw the line on this one.

That article...it’s like child abuse to put all that out there. When my DC were nine they were having a childhood, not being paraded on national news channels in a face full of make up. I do judge both the parents and the journalist involved. Gross invasion of privacy for the kid.

I should clarify too as apologies I did say learn from parents. I did mean learn from relatives including sisters, aunts, peers etc whereas boys don't have that from a makeup and feminine clothes perspective.

Re: Christine Burns ‘were you worried about us 5 years ago?’ Trying to think back - when was Self ID proposed and when did Stonewall start suggesting that sex was just a cultural construct? That was when I became concerned.

SarahH12: "I sort of get what you're saying but are you saying then that a female who is infertile will never be a mother as it's biologically impossible? Curious as to where people draw the line on this one."

Of course, Autumn may one day be lucky enough to adopt. It seems unlikely, however. For a start, most people don't want to adopt - they want their own biological children. More importantly, very few children become available for adoption now, and certainly hardly any babies. The authorities try to find better alternatives.

I suppose surrogacy is also an option, though not, in my view, a desirable one. I just feel this child is being supported in their delusion by adults rather than having the harsh reality spelt out.

All teenagers have the opportunity to look ridiculous (see punk/goth/club kids/emo/scene). Looking like a twonk as a teenager isn’t sex specific.

Your friend was relaying the stories she’d been told by AGPs.

See also: Pippa Bunce’s boardroom attire.

Where's Autumn's dad? this is some next level revenge. Poor vegan cat.

Bunce: m.derbund.ch/articles/17022533

I sort of get what you're saying but are you saying then that a female who is infertile will never be a mother as it's biologically impossible? Curious as to where people draw the line on this one.

Well, I suppose a girl who was born without a uterus, for example, would learn (at an appropriate age) that she would never be able to give birth. This is a quite different from encouraging a 9-year-old boy who wants to be a mother to believe that it's possible. Children of that age might believe adults who tell them that it's possible to change sex.

What do you mean by 'draw the line'?

Why isn't Autumn's mother - or anyone else - explaining to Autumn that they will never be a mother because it is biologically impossible? And that a heterosexual man is going to be very uninterested in marrying Autumn because Autumn won't have working female genitals? And that probably a gay man won't be interested either, because Autumn will look like a woman?

I would never, ever say an adoptive mother isn't a real mother - but given the level of magical thinking and glitter and make up shite this family already seem to have subscribed to, would you put money on them having had the (IMO) vital if hard conversations about the lack of fertility, not having biological children if they transition? I don't think I would.

@OldCrone there is a difference between giving birth and being a mother though. You can be a mother in lots of way - stepmother, adoptive mother (both at any age DC not just baby), child born through surrogacy etc

By draw the line I meant would you say a female who is infertile but adopted isn't a motherm? Would you say for a lesbian couple only one of them can be mother because biologically the child only comes from one of them?

@BettyDuMonde but there's a difference between looking ridiculous as a female and looking ridiculous as a male.

Anyway my point was that I strongly disagree with how Autumn's parents are going about supporting her, or at least Autumn's Mum as we don't have Dad's side.

there is a difference between giving birth and being a mother though. You can be a mother in lots of way - stepmother, adoptive mother (both at any age DC not just baby), child born through surrogacy etc

Of course. But there is also a difference between an infertile woman and a man.

By draw the line I meant would you say a female who is infertile but adopted isn't a mother?

Of course not. But there is a difference between an infertile woman and a man.

The point I was making was that it's cruel to tell a little boy that he can grow up to be a woman and a mother. Because he can't. People can't change sex.

but there's a difference between looking ridiculous as a female and looking ridiculous as a male

Nonsense. You are carrying some gendered baggage around, SarahH12!

“GrouchyKiwi

Re towels: I use two one day and one the next so I guess that makes me genderfluid?”

I use a bathrobe:

The point I was making was that it's cruel to tell a little boy that he can grow up to be a woman and a mother. Because he can't. People can't change sex.

And yet here in the 21st century Autumn can grow up to be a woman and a mother. To continue to refer to Autumn as he is frankly offensive and just reeks of a complete lack of understanding and empathy towards people who are or think they may be transgender. This thread and the vast majority on the feminist board just go to show how far we still need to come in trans rights.

How do people change sex, Sarah?

Sarah, that's a viewpoint not a fact.

It's equally valid to suggest that we have gone far too far in removing children's rights to grow up as who they are.

Autumn is male, and little. By any objective measure he really is a little boy still.

here in the 21st century Autumn can grow up to be a woman and a mother

Erm. Riiiiiiiight. Sure. If you say so.. no

I use a towel and a t-shirt on my head.

I must be queer as fuck. Make way for my specialness!

No, Autumn can't grow up to be a woman.

Autumn needs lots of protection because Autumn's mum is an attention seeker and the journalist and the BBC are colluding in exposing this child in a way that even the achingly pro trans Victoria Derbyshire hasn't done with a child so young. I suppose I should be grateful that Autumn isn't sexy dancing in a club for money, but there's a pretty low bar for what I find I am grateful for these days.

And yet here in the 21st century Autumn can grow up to be a woman and a mother.

Just to be clear, Sarah, Autumn can grow up, become a lifelong medical patient who is reliant on regular doses of cross-sex hormones, and have loads of operations and can become a transwoman. Autumn can't ever become a woman, because Autumn was born male. No amount of wishful thinking can change that simple fact.

People can't change sex.

And yet here in the 21st century Autumn can grow up to be a woman and a mother.

Not in any real sense though. For sure he can pretend to be a woman and mother and the societal forces around him can force others to collude in that pretending, but he hasn't actually changed into something fundamentally different has he (unless you are aware of a hitherto unheard of method of humans changing sex)?

This completely gendered childhood/teen years stuff is a really recent invention.

A quick google search of teens/young adults from the 50s onwards shows that.

From Teddy Boys/Teddy Girls to Mods...