Bloody hell BBC

[WorkingItOutAsIGo]

Reading the BBC news online this morning and there is not one, but two stories about transgender people. One promoting the transition of a small child, and the other promoting sport for transgender athletes. The latter in particular looks like a direct attempt to counter the news discussion over the last few days in sport.

This isn’t news, it’s wartime propaganda.

Ereshkigal

I am not talking about gender dysphoria - not sure why you have jumped to that - but to gender identity.

"Gender identity" is a politically correct acceptable term to describe what a male person who identifies themselves as a woman (or vice versa a female person) feels themself to have. Plus a lot of other more dubious ideological baggage.

The definitions assume all people have a gender identity, not just transgender people.

Dadjoke , I’m still waiting for you to explain the key identifiers of a female gender identity

Since you’re so sure it’s real, that should be easy?

Gwan gwan gwan gwan gwan

Help me out here

How do I know I’ve got a female gender ID?

BernardBlacksWineIcelolly

Ask yourself the question "Am I woman"? If the answer is yes, then your gender identity is woman.

Because, DJ, "gender dysphoria" as it is now called, i.e. transgenderism is what the concept of "gender identity" is based on.

I don't care what the politically motivated "definitions" happen to say. As I said, it's simply a matter of political correctness. It's a belief that must be respected by all or people tend to suffer the consequences. As we know. But most people also know you can't change sex. They just can't say it without an awful lot of hassle. So it's generally easier to go along with it, don't you think?

It's not an "identity", it's our sex. Just like MTF trans people are of the male sex.

How do I know if I'm a woman?
What is a woman?

And also, how does that work for non-binary, and things like neutrois?(where the gender identity is that they don't have a gender identity, as far as I can tell)

Thanks.

Dadjoke , I’m still waiting for you to explain the key identifiers of a female gender identity

Don't make any plans for ooh the next 500 years

Ask yourself the question "Am I woman"? If the answer is yes, then your gender identity is woman.

So that’s a nice circular argument, then.

And what if I lie in answer to the question "am I a woman?" Or change my mind 2 seconds after you've asked the question? How would you know what I am?

Ereshkigal

I don't care what the politically motivated "definitions" happen to say. As I said, it's simply a matter of political correctness. It's a belief that must be respected by all or people tend to suffer the consequences. As we know. But most people also know you can't change sex. They just can't say it without an awful lot of hassle. So it's generally easier to go along with it, don't you think?

So, your position is that almost every national and international medical and psychological body (where these definitions come from) is just bowing to political correctness? That you think they know gender identity is a religion but they are all to scared to say? It's a defensible position, but I just want to be sure that's what you think.

ScipioAfricanus

No, a circular argument would be "a woman is a woman"

And also, how does that work for non-binary, and things like neutrois?(where the gender identity is that they don't have a gender identity, as far as I can tell)

They're allowed to opt out of "gender", because they are special and unique. We are not.

I think it's a combination of fear, not wanting the hassle, and not caring about the consequences of this ideology.

Ask yourself the question "Am I woman"? If the answer is yes, then your gender identity is woman.

What happens when a woman knows she's a woman but does not accept that she has a gender identity? In your world DadJoke she is somehow delusional or anti-science.

I still can't figure out what you're trying to do on this thread.

heresyisthenewblack

And what if I lie in answer to the question "am I a woman?" Or change my mind 2 seconds after you've asked the question? How would you know what I am?

Because you could, in theory, lie about thing, does not mean that thing is badly defined. You could lie about your ability to speak German, whether you are a mother or not, what your sexuality or religious belief is. That does not reflect whether those concepts are valid. That is not to say that people lying about their gender identity could not be dangerous.

Ask yourself the question "Am I woman"? If the answer is yes, then your gender identity is woman.

As several of us have already explained to you, DadJoke, that simply means that we are women in a biological sense. It says nothing about 'gender identity' - which you still haven't defined.

Alternatively if I say 'No, I'm a horse', does that mean my gender identity is 'horse'? Or does it mean that I'm suffering from a delusion which makes me think I'm a horse? Or does it mean that I'm giving a ridiculous answer to a ridiculous question?

Just to throw things back in your direction for a moment. What useful purpose does the idea of us all having a gender identity serve? Sex provides us with two useful categories to divide people into. What about 'gender identity'? In your opinion, what is useful and meaningful about people having a 'gender identity'? You might want to refer back to CharlieParley's superb post from last night which explains why the idea of 'gender' is so harmful, particularly to women.

Ask yourself the question "Am I woman"? If the answer is yes, then your gender identity is woman

unhelpful

let's try phrasing the question a different way

what are the characteristics of a female gender identity?

how would you differentiate between a female gender ID and a male gender ID?

No, DadJoke, your argument is circular because you ask yourself ‘am I x’ and then if you say ‘I am x’ you are ‘x’.

Also, I am a woman because I am biologically a woman. Not because I ask myself if I am and then say ‘yes’.

Words must have meanings which are defined other than people asking and answering them to themselves.

let's see if we can help you out by consulting the British Association for Counselling and Psychotherapy

Meg John Barker has attempted to define the gender identity of woman, although it's still pretty woolly, but she's doing better that you DadJoke, in that it's not completely circular

Its appears that Mx Barker thinks that

Being a woman in a British cultural context often means adhering to social norms of femininity, such as being nurturing, caring, social, emotional, vulnerable, and concerned with appearance

Do you agree with this definition DadJoke ?

nauticant

What happens when a woman knows she's a woman but does not accept that she has a gender identity? In your world DadJoke she is somehow delusional or anti-science.

If gender identity is a scientifically valid term, then yes. That's what were are discussing. I think it is, you don't.

By analogy, scientists used to thing there was a substance called phlogiston, a substance supposed by chemists to exist in all combustible bodies, and to be released in combustion. I might say "you contain phlogiston" and you might say "there is no such thing as phlogiston." The dispute is over whether phlogiston is real or not. It wasn't.

If we stick to the scientific consensus on gender identity, can anyone point at a national or international medical or scientific body which does not accept gender identity as a real thing?

Then at least we can get to the point where we agree who is arguing against the scientific consensus.

No definition of gender identity yet? Shame.

pancaketosser

I've post a whole bunch up thread from a number of national and international scientific and medical bodies.

The dispute is over whether phlogiston is real or not. It wasn't.

Just like 'gender identity', then.