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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Bloody hell BBC

563 replies

WorkingItOutAsIGo · 05/03/2019 07:06

Reading the BBC news online this morning and there is not one, but two stories about transgender people. One promoting the transition of a small child, and the other promoting sport for transgender athletes. The latter in particular looks like a direct attempt to counter the news discussion over the last few days in sport.

This isn’t news, it’s wartime propaganda.

OP posts:
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OldCrone · 20/03/2019 15:26

Your gender identity is your knowledge of yourself a man, woman or neither. Usually this matches your sex defined at birth. If not, you are transgender.

Can you answer a couple of questions, DadJoke? I know you've been asked quite a lot of questions, but I think these are critical to our understanding of this issue.

What is your gender identity? How do you know you have that gender identity and not another gender identity?

BickerinBrattle · 20/03/2019 15:29

So it all comes down to Say-So again.

I, a male, am a woman because I say I am a woman, and you women must accept that because I say so. There is no objective test of my woman-ness. There is no definition of woman-ness I can be held to. But I am a woman and not only must uphold that, you must do so under penalty of LAW. Without objective test, without anything that can be proven by evidence, the LAW accepts me as a woman and therefore entitled to EVERY remedy established in law to make up for millennia of female oppression I myself was never subject to and in fact did my part to enforce (as I’m doing now - hahaha) but gratefully I will accept any women’s sporting awards, scholarships, or achievement awards and with pleasure I will enter any female space I damn please.

I don’t think even the monarch holds such power of command.

CaptainMarvelBunting · 20/03/2019 15:32

At this point, I'm not really sure why there a number of intelligent women spending their time on writing carefully analytical posts, instead of offering a few tasty fish and a big beach ball for DadJoke to balance on his nose.

OldCrone · 20/03/2019 15:36

Captain Grin

I'm thinking of the lurkers. I really would like to know how DadJoke knows he's a man, though, and doesn't think he might be mistaken and actually be a woman.

heresyisthenewblack · 20/03/2019 15:38

I'll start with Mosby's medical dictionary:
"the inner sense of maleness or femaleness. Differentiation of gender identity begins in infancy, continues throughout childhood, and is reinforced during adolescence. Also called core gender identity."

McGraw Hill medical dictionary: "Core gender identity 'The inner conviction that one is male, female, ambivalent, or neutral.'GI is a major personality trait, that develops in the first 2 yrs of life, and is 'fixed' by the 3rd yr."

Collin's medical dictionary " The inherent sense that one belongs to a particular sex. In almost all cases that sex corresponds to the anatomical sex, but for a small minority, the gender identity is for the opposite anatomical sex."

The American Association of Psychiatry defines it as "(the psychological sense of being male or female)" alongside sexuality and social gender role.

The APS defines it as "to one’s internal sense of being male, female, or something else."

Compare that to the definition of soul:
The spiritual part of a person that some people believe continues to exist in some form after their body has died, or the part of a person that is not physical and experiences deep feelings and emotions.
dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/soul

Gender identity genuinely has no definition that is logically coherent (i.e. what does it "feel like" to be male or female or "something else"? And what is that "something else" in a sexually dimorphic species?). It is a false assumption that everyone has a gender identity, simply because a (likely aetiologically heterogenous) group of people are distressed over their sexed bodies or gender role in society. As mentioned before, even within the trans umbrella there is neutrois: a gender identity that doesn't have a gender identity. How does that fit in with all this?

Gender identity, I think, is a term medical professionals and trans people are using to give language to the phenomenon of people who believe they are (or should be) the opposite sex. Probably because the word "delusion" is rightly felt to be too harsh. But I would argue that the definition of the word delusion as a fixed false belief is reasonably applicable to this context. The fixed belief one is the opposite sex is demonstrably false. I am really sorry, but this is just a fact. So in order to avoid calling what is going on with trans people a delusion, one needs to construct another concept: gender identity. The fixed belief one has this other thing called a gender identity, and that it is not matched with one's sex, is as demonstrable as the existence of a soul. Both are completely internal and intangible. So you can't call someone's belief in a specific gender identity a delusion, because you can't demonstrate whether it's true or false. The evidence for and against will be similarly circular and metaphysical as the evidence for and against other unverifiable convictions. You either believe, or you don't. We correctly accept that some people want to live their lives according to their beliefs about gender identity as long as they don't hurt anyone else, similarly to people who believe in other unprovable things like Jesus being the son of God. That's why I think comparing it to a religion is the best parallel. It also helps explain why those who don't "share the faith," as it were, get so offended by the thought of enshrining these quite niche beliefs about gender and sex into law.

ILuvBirdsEye · 20/03/2019 15:38

Captain , always for the lurkers. The ideology gets shown up in all it's illogical, indefensible batshit glory.

Knicknackpaddyflak · 20/03/2019 15:38

It's a thing some men do. 'Please women patiently explain, while I'm really annoyingly logical and superior and hair splitting, your oppression and distress, and justify it to my full satisfaction, while I smile and pick holes in something I have no skin in the game of, no emotional connection to, which matters to me not a jot. Because it amuses me.'

As if women only have the right to have concerns if Mr Reasonable and Endlessly Logical grants it to them.

Fuck that.

DadJoke · 20/03/2019 15:40

OldCrone
I know I am man, therefore my gender identity is a man. I know that my gender identity isn't anything else in the same way I know my sexuality.

BickerinBrattle
Accepting that gender identity is real does not mean that the protected characteristic of sex should be undermined. It doesn't mean that trans women should be allowed into women's sports, for example.

I am still waiting for anyone to post anything from any reputable national or international psychiatric or medical association which suggests the gender identity is other than accepted as a real.
I'll assume, then that there is no such body.

OldCrone · 20/03/2019 15:46

I know I am man, therefore my gender identity is a man. I know that my gender identity isn't anything else in the same way I know my sexuality.

You know your sexuality because you know who you're attracted to. How do you know your gender identity?

OldCrone · 20/03/2019 15:50

If we stick to the scientific consensus on gender identity, can anyone point at a national or international medical or scientific body which does not accept gender identity as a real thing?

Scientific consensus normally comes about from research and publication in scientific journals. Can you post some links to this research, since you seem to be familiar with it?

DadJoke · 20/03/2019 15:50

CaptainMarvelBunting

I really didn't want to engage with this issue on this thread, but I was told I would be being all Anthony Watson if I didn't. I promise I am not trying to waste anyone's time and that I am engaging in good faith. It's not pleasure for me to do it, nor am I getting any kicks out of it.

I have skin in the game - not like you do, of course - I have a daughter and son, and the outcome of this culture war will have an impact on them. I do not like the way TRAs call out any disagreement as transphobic, and I've been called a terf for supporting sex segregated sports.

heresyisthenewblack

Your position here supports the view that you think that the medical establishment are pretending that gender identity is real to assist transgender people. Is that a fair summary?

ILuvBirdsEye · 20/03/2019 15:51

If this was something that everyone had, we would ALL have it.
But it's not and we don't.
Distress at one's body - yes, I can understand that. But gender identity - pure made up bullshit.

Nothing definable and therefore not legislatable. Just legal fiction.

DadJoke · 20/03/2019 15:52

OldCrone
You know your sexuality because you know who you're attracted to. How do you know your gender identity?

How do I know what I know? I'm afraid that question is too metaphysical for me. How do you know what your favourite colour is?

CaptainMarvelBunting · 20/03/2019 15:53

Oh, I know it's for the lurkers. As was my post really. It's useful to pick apart total bullshit (and please, let's not pretend the beach ball balancer is using logic).

It's also useful for the lurkers to be reminded that this is a male ego display, requiring women to dance around performing tasks to satisfy a sense of detached curiosity, and a blank refusal to answer any questions in return.

Women learn ever such a lot from these threads. Sometimes it's how to dismantle bad arguments. Sometimes it's how to recognize when a man is making sealioning demands.

DadJoke · 20/03/2019 15:54

Scientific consensus normally comes about from research and publication in scientific journals. Can you post some links to this research, since you seem to be familiar with it?

That is simply side-stepping the question. There is plenty of research into gender identity, but I've not found any which suggests it's not a real thing.

BernardBlacksWineIcelolly · 20/03/2019 15:54

You know your sexuality because you know who you're attracted to. How do you know your gender identity?

As a teenager I wondered if I was gay

I came the conclusion that because I wanted to have sex with men and not with women I was in fact not gay

If you know your gender identity in the same way you know your sexuality, you must surely have gone through a similar reasoning process

BernardBlacksWineIcelolly · 20/03/2019 15:55

still waiting to hear the differences between a male and female gender identity

what might a typical person with a male gender identity be like for example?

CaptainMarvelBunting · 20/03/2019 15:56

DadJoke, yes, I'm sure it's bruising to be compared to an ignorant bully like Watson.

I just have a low tolerance for men setting up camp here and requiring endless labour from women who are discussing their own rights and protections. There are other ways to be unhelpful than doing an Anthony Watson.

DadJoke · 20/03/2019 15:57

BernardBlacksWineIcelolly
still waiting to hear the differences between a male and female gender identity

Answered up thread.

BernardBlacksWineIcelolly · 20/03/2019 15:57

It's also useful for the lurkers to be reminded that this is a male ego display

Oh yeah for sure

I'm quite enjoying his complete inability to even understand a very, very simple question though - what are the characteristics of a female gender identity?

BernardBlacksWineIcelolly · 20/03/2019 15:59

Answered up thread

ah, sorry I missed it. This is a fast moving thread - could you give me a rough time?

Ereshkigal · 20/03/2019 16:00

^I am still waiting for anyone to post anything from any reputable national or international psychiatric or medical association which suggests the gender identity is other than accepted as a real.
I'll assume, then that there is no such body.^

Going to be as dismissive as you. Answered upthread why they are unlikely to do so.

OldCrone · 20/03/2019 16:00

There is plenty of research into gender identity, but I've not found any which suggests it's not a real thing.

Can you link to some of this research? Typing 'gender identity' into google scholar gets me over half a million hits, so it would be good to see some of what you have read which has convinced you it is a real thing.

Ereshkigal · 20/03/2019 16:02

I've read plenty, none of which convinces me that it's anything more than a psychological condition such as body dysmorphia.

BernardBlacksWineIcelolly · 20/03/2019 16:03

I've scanned back through your posts today DadJoke, and I'm afraid none of them leave me any the wiser about how I might identify a male or female gender identity

Do people with a male gender identity tend to act a certain way? or dress a certain way? do they like certain things? are you able to give any examples?