Bloody hell BBC

[WorkingItOutAsIGo]

Reading the BBC news online this morning and there is not one, but two stories about transgender people. One promoting the transition of a small child, and the other promoting sport for transgender athletes. The latter in particular looks like a direct attempt to counter the news discussion over the last few days in sport.

This isn’t news, it’s wartime propaganda.

If they were younger I would talk to them about gender expression, sexuality, gender stereotypes, gender dysphoria and what it means to be transgender.

How young? Why would you talk to them about the distressing mental condition of gender dysphoria which makes people think there is something wrong with their healthy bodies? Unless they, or perhaps another family member or friend were actually suffering from this condition, of course. Which other distressing mental conditions would you discuss with your children? At what age? Would you cover the whole DSM or just part of it? How would you select what to cover?

I'd be interested to know what you think it means to be transgender. As far as I can tell, according to pressure groups like Mermaids it means that if you're a child you need medication ASAP, in order to prepare for irreversible surgery as soon as you're legally an adult. According to late transitioning males it appears to be a belief in the female penis.

What's your view?

What’s wrong with just telling your son, you are a boy but that doesn’t mean you can’t wear dresses, nail polish and play with dolls DadJoke? All boys and all girls can dress in whatever they like and play with any toys they like?

You know we almost had it right there back in the 70s and 80s, glam rockers, gender benders, New Romantics they all made the mainstream and made it ok for boys and men to wear make up, frills and high heels. No one cared and no one insisted they were girls and women, they just were what they were NOT what they wore.

Well, some people did (I think Jarvis Cocker mentioned that he would be often bullied by the miners in Sheffield, which explained why he had conflicting feelings); and that was the kind of bullying that went with catcalling and misogyny. But instead of dealing with the misogyny, some people just 'bought into' that and decided it was easier to carve themselves an 'even specialer' place where they could join in with the bullying of the women

Old Crone I would talk to them whatever age they were in age appropriate language. I have always answered my kids questions about sex, death, sexuality and any other issues, however difficult, as openly and honestly as I can, and said where I might be wrong. I would discuss any issues which affected them. My daughter has a debilitating condition which has resulted in blindness, hearing loss and low life expectancy. She is also bisexual. You can believe I have had difficult conversations.

How would I select what to cover? I'd give them my view, the gender critical view and any other sources of information I consider reputable. I'd have them talk to other people I know and trust. I would respect their views in an age-appropriate fashion.

I am against puberty blockers for many reasons, and taking the step to effectively sterilize someone is not one to be taken lightly. Watch and wait is the right approach. This would require at the very least a diagnosis of gender dysphoria, and not just self-id. The fact that Mermaids encourages all transgender children and their parents to give puberty blockers when only a proportion of transgender people are dysphoric is deeply troubling.

WarpedGalaxy
What’s wrong with just telling your son, you are a boy but that doesn’t mean you can’t wear dresses, nail polish and play with dolls DadJoke? All boys and all girls can dress in whatever they like and play with any toys they like?

Yes, of course I'd say that. I even said I'd say that. I'd also tell them that just because they are attracted to someone of the same sex, doesn't mean they are a different gender.

Old Crone what would you say to a 12-year-old son who insisted he was a girl? Would you at any point accept their view of their identity?

How would I select what to cover?

That was in relation to what particular illnesses and conditions you felt it was necessary to talk to your children about. Would you cover similar disorders such as Body integrity identity disorder? Would you cover the sexual fetishism of autogynephilia? What about other completely different mental health conditions? Which ones would you feel the need to talk to your children about?

I also asked you what you think it means to be transgender (you clearly have a view if you think you would discuss this with your children). What's your view on the female penis? Why is it that children need to be medicated ASAP but adults should be able to declare themselves the opposite sex with no medication or surgery?

what would you say to a 12-year-old son who insisted he was a girl? Would you at any point accept their view of their identity?

Being a girl is not an identity, it is a biological fact. People can't change sex. Such a boy should be allowed to express himself as he wishes, and I wish society would become as accepting of men and boys wearing skirts as it now is of women wearing trousers. This has only happened relatively recently. Change is possible, but it won't happen while we insist that a boy expressing himself in a feminine way is actually a girl.

it never ceases to amaze me how people seem to be oblivious to how incredibly sexist it is to say that anything other than biology makes someone a girl or a woman.

because if it's not biology that defines the word 'woman', then what is it?

feminine clothes? sexist
long hair? sexist
make up? sexist
being kind? sexist
being compliant? sexist

come on Dadjoke, how would your hypothetical 12 year old boy know he was a girl? let's here you're lovely non-sexist definition

Old Crone Clearly, I'd talk to them about any illnesses or conditions from which they suffered or asked about. I am not sure what your point is. I wouldn't read the medical dictionary to them.

Why is it that children need to be medicated ASAP but adults should be able to declare themselves the opposite sex with no medication or surgery?

I've covered this elsewhere. I disagree with the Mermaids approach and I think it's deeply troubling.

Being a girl is not an identity, it is a biological fact. People can't change sex. Such a boy should be allowed to express himself as he wishes, and I wish society would become as accepting of men and boys wearing skirts as it now is of women wearing trousers. This has only happened relatively recently. Change is possible, but it won't happen while we insist that a boy expressing himself in a feminine way is actually a girl.

If he acknowledged all that was true, but insisted he knew he was a girl, would you accept his identity or not? Would you say "you are not a girl" and refuse to refer to him as such?

BernardBlacksWineIcelolly

You can still accept all of these things, and still know you are a girl. That's how gender dysphoria works.

8If he acknowledged all that was true, but insisted he knew he was a girl, would you accept his identity or not? Would you say "you are not a girl" and refuse to refer to him as such?*

yes of course - it would be cruel to indulge a delusion

changing your name, your clothes, your hair, wearing or not wearing makeup, playing physical sports, not playing physical sports and so on are all fine, and children should be supported to make their own decisions around these things

changing sex is not possible and it is cruel to give children the idea that it is

but how do you know you are a girl?

if you have a penis then it;s clearly not biology that defines a girl in your belief system, so what does?

I am mystified about what's going on.

What are people actually meaning when they say they think or feel like a girl/woman?

If they could explain this it really might help.

I am not sure what your point is.

My point is why do you think it's so important to talk about one particular condition, gender dysphoria, but not the whole medical dictionary?

If he acknowledged all that was true, but insisted he knew he was a girl, would you accept his identity or not? Would you say "you are not a girl" and refuse to refer to him as such?

Yes, because he's not a girl. It doesn't help him to go along with any delusion he has that he is. He is not and can never be a girl because people can't change sex.

If he insisted he was a dog, would you take him to a vet when he got ill, feed him from a bowl on the floor and take him for walks on a lead? And go along with his 'identity' that he is really a dog? And tell him he can take medication and have surgery to make him into a dog, and that when he grows up he can give birth to puppies?

Everyone should be encouraged to live their lives in the way that they feel most comfortable (as long as it doesn't harm others). We should not be going along with the delusions of confused children. This really doesn't help them at all. I'll say it once more: people can't change sex. Pretending that they can is not helpful to anyone. Least of all to the children themselves.

Telling a child that they can change sex, or that they 'really are' the opposite sex is child abuse. It should be stopped, not encouraged.

That's how gender dysphoria works.

It's an illness. Believing yourself to be something you are not is a delusion.

If he acknowledged all that was true, but insisted he knew he was a girl, would you accept his identity or not? Would you say "you are not a girl" and refuse to refer to him as such?

If he had anorexia, but insisted he was fine, would you help starve him?
If he had schizophrenia, would you encourage him to do what the voices said?

How did we get to a place, where people think there is such a thing as Thinking 'like a girl' (what on earth does this mean? can they elaborate?) and that thinking 'like a girl' means you are now a girl.

It also seems strange that the BBC has an article about a woman who has taken photographs of women in the ladies loos. While I’m not criticising this, it does seem a bit odd to be promoting this on the BBC news website, when there is such a lot in the media at the moment about men taking photos of women in the toilets, especially in South Korea.

If you want a thread on the definition of woman, please start one.

you are the one who brought up a hypothetical 12 year old who insists he is a girl Dadjoke. I'm just asking for some clarification on what this child is basing his insistence on

if you expect his parents to turn the child's life upside down and potentially set him on a very serious medical pathway, you must surely have a very clear idea of precisely what this child is basing his beliefs on?

I know it's a question that's impossible for you to answer by the way

why not ask yourself why your belief system leaves you with questions that are impossible for you to answer?

BernardBlacksWineIcelolly

No, it's not impossible to answer. I am not rising to your bait on this thread.

Surprised you're saying you prefer the watchful waiting approach but ask whether we would affirm a 12 year old. Watchful waiting does not include affirming a child in their chosen identity. Especially not a 12 year old, as this is precisely the developmental stage where mind and body reconciliation begins that results in more than 80% of children desisting.

Affirming a 12 year old is counterproductive and ultimately harmful because it interferes with that process.

it's not bait DadJoke, it's a genuine enquiry

what defines being female?

it's a very simple question

I can answer it - can you?

^If he had anorexia, but insisted he was fine, would you help starve him?
If he had schizophrenia, would you encourage him to do what the voices said?^

No, I'd follow the NHS and NICE guidelines for treating his condition, just the same as I would with gender dysphoria. And I would only allow them to make irreversible medical choices if they were an adult, even if that conflicted with NHS advice.

Old Crone

My point is why do you think it's so important to talk about one particular condition, gender dysphoria, but not the whole medical dictionary?

Because we were discussing what to say to a child who insisted they were a girl when they were identified as a boy at birth, I thought.

BernardBlacksWineIcelolly Start a thread about the definition of woman and I'll answer. That's the last time I'll engage with this question on this thread.