Bloody hell BBC

[WorkingItOutAsIGo]

Reading the BBC news online this morning and there is not one, but two stories about transgender people. One promoting the transition of a small child, and the other promoting sport for transgender athletes. The latter in particular looks like a direct attempt to counter the news discussion over the last few days in sport.

This isn’t news, it’s wartime propaganda.

you're coming across as weirdly controlling in the style of Anthony Watson DadJoke

if a conversation meanders do you often insist that the people you're chatting to move to a different room before you will move to a tangentially related topic that has presented itself from comments you made?

You can still accept all of these things, and still know you are a girl. That's how gender dysphoria works.

I'd like you to expand on this, DadJoke. What do you mean by 'still know you are a girl', when talking about a boy? I have always known I am female (girl then woman) because of my body. Nothing else comes into this description, since female, girl, woman are all defined by biology.

How can a boy 'know he is a girl'? What does this mean and how does he know that?

My assertion is that this 'knowledge' is a delusion. Similar to the non-existent voices which some people hear. Similar to the man who declares that he 'knows' he is Napoleon.

The only other explanation is that this is a religious-style belief. Similar to some people who say that they know that God exists.

What's your explanation, and why do you think it is appropriate to treat it as a scientific fact rather than either a delusion or a religious-style belief?

BernardBlacksWineIcelolly I am sorry. When I've been asked these questions in unrelated threads and answered them, I've been accused probably correctly of derailing and mansplaining, so I'd rather not go into it here. I am not avoiding the topic - truly happy to discuss it. Same to Old Crone.

you're coming across as weirdly controlling in the style of Anthony Watson DadJoke

It's not just BernardBlacksWineIcelolly having this view. This thread now has a peculiar undertone.

how about #EconPride DadJoke?

would you talk about it there?

I'd like some comp tickets please

I'll expand on my comment. You're not actually disagreeing with much of the substance DadJoke but you appear to be pulling the thread onto peripheral areas where you can disagree although to what purpose I can't be sure. Odd.

How can a boy 'know he is a girl'? What does this mean and how does he know that?

DadJoke These questions are at the heart of what this thread is about. I've told you what I think the answers are. What do you think?

OK. I'll engage then. No one wants to be Anthony Watons, least of all Anthony Watson, probably.

OldCrone
I'll start by saying that there are 3000 or so people on the UK are who are legally women. I disagree with TRAs who say sex is a spectrum (it's clearly a binary with a few exceptions.) I also think sex is a real, physical category. Humans a sexually dimorphic.

So what does it mean when someone has female anatomy, but identifies as a man? It all comes down to gender identity. GC feminists think it's akin to a religious belief. Psychologists and most national and international health organisations and trans gender activists think it's a real thing, like sexuality. You can't point at it, but it's there. People who don't have disorders of proprioception don't even know they have it, and yet proprioception is real.

If your gender matches your sex at birth, you won't feel any conflict between your gender identity and sex, and because of that, you will know you are woman without any conflict. That sure and certain knowledge is your gender identity. Equally, a XX person who is certain they are a man, has a gender identity which conflicts with their sex at birth. Psychologist think that gender identity is established at a very young age - less than four.

Gender identity is not "believing" or "deciding" you are a man, it's knowing. Wanting to express yourself atypically is not the same as knowing your own gender - some people's gender expression does not match their gender. Often, to be accepted, transgender people express themselves in a fashion typical for people of their gender, which is not to say such expression is not sexist.

So, if a person's gender identity does not match the sex identified at birth, they are transgender.

Now, if you think that gender identity is just a belief, then you might be angry at me for saying that you have one. I can't really help that.

To summarise, by definition, if you know your are a man, your gender identity is a man, even if your chromosomes are XX.

No, I'd follow the NHS and NICE guidelines for treating his condition, just the same as I would with gender dysphoria

NHS/medical guidance for a range of mental health, emotional and behavioural issues (just as for some medical conditions) has changed significantly over time,, just as the classification for conditions and situations itself has changed.

cf ECT, trepanation, lobotomies, treatment for 'hysteria' etc

It would be naive to think that there aren't current NHS understandings, protocols which might in the future be be viewed conclusively as ineffective or detrimental.

So to summarise, if a man says he is a woman, he must not be questioned.

He doesn't believe it or decide it, he KNOWS it.

You can't point at it, but it's there.

He can't or won't explain how he thinks like a woman, but believe him, he really does know it.

And woman are supposed to accept that? No, explanation, no science, just - this man knows he has a lady brain.

Wow.

To summarise, by definition, if you know your are a man, your gender identity is a man, even if your chromosomes are XX.

No by definition (see medical textbook, dictionary etc) Man = adult human male.

Words matter.
We are not Humpty Dumpty.

At what pout can you tell someone who "knows" what they are, that they are incorrect in their knowledge? And how can you tell if they are incorrect?

*point, not "pout".

He knows it like people who know earth is flat, and God made Adam and Eve and Brexit is going to 'make Britain great'.

You just have to suck it up and listen to the man telling you that he knows that some men are women. They know.

Of course it's a belief, personality and choices are all based on beliefs about yourself and often vary over a lifetime.

How someone views and names and presents themselves is entirely their affair. I'm interested in women's rights, and the right of the 52% of the human race who are women only because they all were born in the same type of body to dignity, privacy and autonomy.

Women are not expected in any way to put up with men in their spaces or infringing their bodily privacy, it's not a normal or tolerated belief in our society. They are being asked to make exceptions and not only tolerate but actively lie about some men using their spaces based not on objective reality, or those women's subjective experiences, but because of an objective statement on the part of the man that his self definition must be elevated above anyone else's perceptions and best interests.

That isn't ok. Third spaces, great. But people born into female bodies have their own problems based entirely on those bodies and need their spaces and provisions to meet those issues. Their ability to do so is massively reduced by insisting that some men are women if they say so, complete with male bodies.

But DadJoke why should gender identity be considered the factor that defines your sex, rather than your actual sex?
I get that people may experience dysphoria between their physical reality and their personal gender identity, but why should I have to buy into it too?

I get that people may experience dysphoria between their physical reality and their personal gender identity, but why should I have to buy into it too?

Isn't it more accurate to describe 'sex dysphoria'? Some males want / feel they need to be female and visa versa.
Use of gender/gender identity obfuscates whats happening and also muddles the nature of treatments etc.

R0wantrees If the dictionary definition changes to encompass trans women, will you change your view? I doubt it. Dictionaries track usage, and tend to lag. There is good article about the dictionary definition of woman here:
slate.com/human-interest/2017/09/why-a-controversial-definition-of-the-word-woman-doesnt-necessarily-mean-the-dictionary-is-sexist.html

We can certainly talk about dictionary definitions, if you like, but I don't think it helps much. Webster's includes defintions of trans gender and gender identity which match what I've said above.

Yes, it's entirely possible that NHS and NICE guidelines will change, but nowadays they are research and evidence-based, looking at the best outcomes for the patient. It's best not to let ideology get in the way of the most effective treatment. Check the prognosis here:

patient.info/doctor/gender-dysphoria-pro#nav-6

"Outcome of the various treatments used has been difficult to establish but is generally considered to be good and continuing to improve. Generally assessments of outcome from genital surgery show benefit to well-being, cosmetic result and sexual function[20, 21]. Outcome of hormonal treatment has also been shown to improve well-being and quality of life[22]. Few report regret following treatment.

Studies have reported higher mortality rates in transsexual individuals, as well as higher rates of suicide and psychiatric morbidity[23, 24]. These rates are higher irrespective of whether gender-related surgery has taken place."

Helmetbymidnight if a man knows he is a man, he is a man, by that I mean, his gender identity is a man. If we stick with trans men as examples of transgender people, it will be less likely to provoke outrage.

The science of gender identity is quite well established. See the NICE website if you like. So arguing there is not science at all is disingenuous.

www.england.nhs.uk/commissioning/spec-services/npc-crg/group-e/e10/

Ihaventgottimeforthis

But DadJoke why should gender identity be considered the factor that defines your sex, rather than your actual sex?

Sex defines your sex. Gender identity defines your gender. I think trans men are of the male sex. Their gender is woman. Sex and gender are related, but they are not the same thing.

If the dictionary definition changes to encompass trans women, will you change your view?

It'll be a lie. A nice, polite social lie, but a lie all the same. It'll be a bigger reflection on a society that thinks being nice to people with penises matters more than reality and the equal best interests of both sexes.

And still not interested in the science. Women's rights is what we do here. Only interested in how this impacts on women, and ensuring the needs specific to those born in female bodies aren't shoved under the bus in a rush to a political ideology.

R0wantrees

^Isn't it more accurate to describe 'sex dysphoria'? Some males want / feel they need to be female and visa versa.
Use of gender/gender identity obfuscaes whats happening and also muddles the nature of treatments etc.^

Gender identity is a central plank of what being transgender means. I agree that conflating sex and gender is very problematic, and I don't like the way that the sex category is being undermined despite it being clearly protected in the ERA 2010.

I think trans men are of the male sex. Their gender is woman.

Have you got confused there? Transmen are born female and identify as male. Their sex is female while their gender identity is transman. Transwomen are born male sexed and have a gender identify as women.

If the dictionary definition changes to encompass trans women, will you change your view? I doubt it. Dictionaries track usage, and tend to lag

Dadjoke Im an English graduate so yes thanks I am aware of dictionaries. My comment specifically was:

No by definition (see medical textbook, dictionary etc) Man = adult human male.

Words matter!

Knicknackpaddyflak

I agree that sex-based rights are being undermined by TRAs. That doesn't stop trans men being men.