How is this anything to do with furthering women's rights?

[SparrowNest]

I'm sympathetic to many radfem arguments, but I can't for the life of me understand how opposing lacy lingerie being made to fit a wider range of bodies helps women.

Given that similar lingerie already exists in standard women's sizes, surely expanding that so it can fit anyone is only lessening gender constraints? How is trying to restrict it only to biological women helping anything?

www.pinknews.co.uk/2019/03/01/anti-trans-protest-over-pornographic-transgender-lingerie-fashion-show

Yeah right, go tell Anne Ryzlo she just needs to show more compassion.

Have you any idea what she has been through?

I doubt it.

Yes, i umderstand your discomfort - but I still think this is part and parcel of the bigger picture. Without wanting to sound patronizing, how long have you been reading around this? The transwidows thread mentioned upthread is a real eye opener to exactly what kind of behaviour is intertwined with this whole issue, and while we can certainly feel sad that someone is unhappy, there are often consequences to people pursuing their own happiness in terms of personal relationships, or impact on wider society.

A man wearing skimpies will hopefully not have any direct impact on me. But the promotion of the ideas behind him feeling validated as a woman from wearing that kind of coded clothing is a part of the cascade of beliefs that have led to the current situation.

Trousering I don't know who Anne Ryzlo is, but I wouldn't ever argue that someone personally dealing with a partner coming out as trans needs to show more compassion. I think they're a person who is struggling, and that it's people calling them "bigot" or similar who need to show more compassion.

NB getting your arse handed to you on a plate on your first thread is a MN rite of passage. This is probably a better way to get it out of the way than the way I did, which was to ask for breast feeding support and have some snooty cow say "you could have advance-searched the answer to that..." when actually I was really struggling with PND (and a baby with low birth weight and a tongue tie, and low milk supply due to PCOS).

Anne Ryzlo is a woman who has devoted her life to women's rights, a prison officer with decades of first hand experience of the sort of shitty circumstances that land women in prison and the vulnerabilities of those women, a lesbian, a feminist, and a life-long labour activist. She was hounded out of her position as a constituency women's officer by an extreme transactivist.

God yes. You haven't really lived unless you've had a misunderstanding and pile on on MN and lived to tell the tale. I was once thought to be a creepy period troll for over sharing about my daughter's mirth over her mooncup (which she had suggested I share).

FloralBunting Quite a while now. It's something I first encountered as part of an undergraduate course but it wasn't such a hot button topic then. We were set readings covering perspectives from "both sides" without any sort of controversy.

I've been paying attention to the online conversation for at least 4 years. I've read Rebecca Reilly-Cooper. I've read Gender Trender. I've read Sarah Ditum, Helen Lewis and Glosswitch. I've read Meghan Murphy. I've also read Julia Serano and Everyday Feminism.

The trans widow thread was really eyeopening and probably did change my perspective to some extent. I feel hugely sympathetic to the women posting, but I do think the men often sound like they're going through some sort of mental crisis.

OP I agree with you. I said on another thread recently that the radical feminists on here have the option of sticking to their hard line attitudes, preaching to each other or as you suggest, concentrate on the important issues.

Recently we have seen Martina Navratilova, Sharron Davies and Piers Morgan addressing trans issues in a moderate, concise, clear and easy to understand way. I expect large swathes of the general public who have little or no interest in feminism or trans issues looked at what they said and thought- "yes that makes sense".

This demonstration to the casual observer (which is the majority of the public) just looks bonkers.

And if this is the "telling feminists they are feministing wrong" - I couldn't care less about telling feminists how to practice their beliefs but most people are not feminists. That particular accusation, tbh when used, comes across to me as nothing more than an attempt to shut up a poster expressing a view which departs from the concensus.

If preaching to a small choir of like minded women is what radical feminists want, then carry on with this sort of stuff. If what radical feminists want is the general public to get involved, this sort of demonstration isn't it.

FermatsTheorem God, I don't understand why someone would respond that way to a genuine question about something like that. The anonymity of online conversation often seems to bring out the worst in people. Myself included, probably.

I'll google Anne Ryzlo, but I'm generally pretty opposed to people being hounded out of roles for dissenting views. It's funny, the gender debate has made me much more a free speech fundamentalist. I know for a fact that if I publicly expressed every opinion I hold on the issue people would attempt to get me fired. It's easy not to understand the importance of free speech until its your views that are proscribed.

LassOfFyvie You've explained it better than I managed.

Yes, the men do sound like they're having a series of crises. Which is unpleasant, no doubt. But FWR (this board) is unapologetically woman- focused, so their distress will always be secondary to the suffering they have caused their partners and children. That's what makes FWR somewhat different to Twitter or other arenas where this is discussed. As I mentioned, the only reason trans is a topic of conversation here is because it so very largely negatively affects women and their children.

Almost everyone posting here started out as a trans 'ally'. We don't come from an.anti-trans perspective, it's a pro-women one. That's always going to weight the equation.

They are the women that hijacked Pride for fucks sake.

If preaching to a small choir of like minded women is what radical feminists want, then carry on with this sort of stuff. If what radical feminists want is the general public to get involved, this sort of demonstration isn't it.

Well, they seem to be doing pretty well so far without your patronising input. This time two years ago, reform of the GRA to self-ID (and with it, the complete eradication of women's rights) was a done deal.

Personally, instead of turning up as a Johnny-come-lately and snottily pronouncing on the correct way to go about things, I would think saying thank you would be more in order.

I proper love Julia Long, BTW.

My DD(12) is currently being bombarded by messages that say things like woman = people who choose to wear lacy undies, and conversely, that she must be a boy because she thinks lacy undies just look scratchy and weird (she likes comic books and fancies girls, the pressure to identify as trans or non-binary is palpable).

Last week was half term and I was washing up to a video of Julia Long speaking and DD popped her head round the door in a wtf? Kind of way, and within the hour she had a new feminist shero - so important for today’s fledgling lesbians.

Not all protests are aimed at engaging the masses. Not everyone engaging the masses is doing so in the name of feminisim.

Not all protests are aimed at engaging the masses

Excellent!

So much for free speech. Expressing a dissenting view generates a personal attack. I thought the demonstration was ridiculous.

I think this thread, like many of the threads on here are preaching to the converted. Fine I suppose on here but if you (general you) want to get a message across this sort of stunt does little good.

Not all protests are aimed at engaging the masses

Rather the point I'm making. Why engage with the masses when you (general you) can congratulate yourselves on being right (whilst the masses look on with a mixture of lack of interest and incredulity)

Personally, instead of turning up as a Johnny-come-lately and snottily pronouncing on the correct way to go about things, I would think sayingthank youwould be more in order.

True. As someone who only woke up last year, I want to thank women here and irl who kept on keeping on!
You're the reason why self-id might not happen, not Piers fucking Morgan.

Now, you see, I respect that Sparrow has a point of view, and despite a bit of a rocky first few pages, has engaged with the conversation. I don't think everyone has to like the demonstration. I do think it would be good if people would stop launching themselves into threads to tell us all off.

LangCleg

Personally, instead of turning up as a Johnny-come-lately and snottily pronouncing on the correct way to go about things, I would think saying thank you would be more in order

Is that addressed to me? Some posters on here really do seem to be labouring under the delusion that this is a private club. How dare a "newcomer" say anything which goes against the concensus

LassOfFyvie

Right. I think the most common response to the lingerie brand will be "but what harm are they doing", and that trans people will feel victimised for trying to do something perfectly ordinary. If a protest like this isn't supposed to persuade the masses, what actually is the goal?

(The reason I don't find it funny is because I don't find mocking people in psychological distress very amusing. If you think trans people aren't in psychological distress, but are acting maliciously, I can see why you might find it funny.)

Sparrow, you do know that gender dysphoria is not required to be trans, of course. And Betty explained why the protest didnt have to persuade the masses to be encouraging to her daughter.