How is this anything to do with furthering women's rights?

[SparrowNest]

I'm sympathetic to many radfem arguments, but I can't for the life of me understand how opposing lacy lingerie being made to fit a wider range of bodies helps women.

Given that similar lingerie already exists in standard women's sizes, surely expanding that so it can fit anyone is only lessening gender constraints? How is trying to restrict it only to biological women helping anything?

www.pinknews.co.uk/2019/03/01/anti-trans-protest-over-pornographic-transgender-lingerie-fashion-show

@rightreckone So the feminist stance is that lacy lingerie should only be available to natal/cis women, or that it should be banned for everyone? Neither of those sound right to me

Tell you what, if you don't mind, you don't have to picket.

OK?

Stop trying to tell women with years of feminist thinking and activism under their belts what they may or may not do

Fucking hell

I'm not telling anyone what they may or may not do, I don't have that power. I do have exactly as much right as they do to critique the actions of others, and to discuss what I perceive are the consequences.

You (reasonably) accuse trans activists of groupthink and cult like behaviour, but the anger at someone daring to disagree with you even slightly is unreal.

Yes sorry had a think

Julia and Co Rd got keen on lingerie for women

I expect they always have red lace thongs on under their less feminine outerwear

They are angry because lingerie is special to women and men should not be allowed to wear it

You have not nail on head

Well done

Tbh, I couldne care less what impression you think it gives. I support women protesting in whatever legal manner they deem appropriate, nice or not.

You don't like this protest, fine. Women are not a homogenous lump with one official spokesperson, so you're perfectly capable of explaining to people that you have GC views and distancing yourself from this protest if you want to.

OP, the protesters see it all as gross promotion of AGP which we know is behind a lot of the damage being done to women's rights, but on the surface it does come across a bit like, But... I thought you were OK about trans identified people expressing themselves however they wish no? So long as they don't infringe on women's rights, no? I agree with you.

I would actually prefer they had a lingerie section all to themselves to be honest, rather than buying the stuff made for women.

What you're describing is your fear that women demonstrating in a way you disagree with is embarrassing to you as you share some of their views. You appear to have started a thread to complain about it. I mean, fair enough. Not sure how you think that will further women's rights either, though. Looks to me like you're telling the demonstrators to be nice, and that never really flies well.

I think the issue is most people don’t know the extent to which TRAs are about the normalisation of and acceptance of AGP.

Anything that draws attention to the male sexual entitlement behind some of this agenda is fine by me.

@FloralBuntingIsObnoxious

I'm also very pro-freedom of speech and freedom of assembly, but that doesn't mean I'm not going to criticise protests I disagree with. I'm not suggesting moral equivalence with this, but I wouldn't blindly support the EDL organising an anti-Muslim protest because of what happened in Rotherham.

@DpWm

Sure, I get that AGP is driving a lot of the push to erode certain protects and rights that women currently enjoy. My argument would be that it's the attempt to erode these rights that's the problem, not the fetish itself. I understand the arguments about pornification, women being expected to look a certain way and being reduced to sex objects, and can agree that a culture without that would be superior. Ultimately, though, I support every individual's right to wear lacy lingerie and feel sexy because of it, because what's the alternative?

I think maybe where I differ from some people on here is that I don't think being trans is purely a fetish, or a malicious attempt to overstep women's boundaries. I think people with genuine gender dysphoria are struggling and deserve to be treated with empathy. From this perspective, protesting a brand launching lingerie in their sizes just seems needlessly cruel.

But being a woman is mostly about sexy underwear, isn't it?

Sexy underwear big hair lovely lipstick good high heels?

That's got to be 99% of what being a woman is all about.

That and self objectification for the male gaze.

I only feel like a real woman when I put my peephole bra on.

This is a standard experience for all all.

Even elderly ones.

We really feel like proper women when we get all wrapped up like a present.

The other important thing is mascara.

OP, may I recommend reading Bunbury’s ‘how to feminist correctly,’ it’s very enlightening.

@SardineQueenII

I obviously don't think that. But I do buy into it enough that sometimes I like to buy 'sexy' underwear and get dolled up, and I enjoy that my husband appreciates it, even though I'm normally in comfy cotton pants and bras.

I don't really see why it's worse for trans women to do that than it is when I do it. You're right that there are general critiques of lingerie out there, but this action is clearly because the company is manufacturing products in trans sizes.

Proper women, whether they have penises or not, are way too busy feeling sexy in their lovely silky undies to be doing this sort of sign waving nonsense.

Those women aren't really real women much at all, are they.

@SpartacusAutisticusAHF

Man Friday was about single-sex spaces being taken away from women. This is about trans people being able to buy the underwear they want to wear in sizes that actually fit them. There's no comparison.

What lingerie does your husband wear to return the favour?

He deserves to feel sexy too. Get 'dolled up'. Or is that kenned up?

@SardineQueenII What a weird tangent you've set off on. It has nothing whatsoever to do with anything I've said

I think your arguments are falling a bit flat, sparrow.

@SardineQueenII

My husband also pays attention to his physical appearance, in different ways to me. Less so, I would say, but that's the nature of gender norms.

My point is that aside from you right now, nobody has ever really attacked me for conforming to them. I don't see why people with gender dysphoria have a special responsibility to be unaffected by the same social messages I'm affected by.

You like to get done up like a sexy doll for your husband.

What does he do that is equivalent?

Genuine question.

I know the answer. He doesnt get done up in little bits of lace for you, as he is a man, and men are not decorative sex objects.

Your need to do some reading and have a think.