How is this anything to do with furthering women's rights?

[SparrowNest]

I'm sympathetic to many radfem arguments, but I can't for the life of me understand how opposing lacy lingerie being made to fit a wider range of bodies helps women.

Given that similar lingerie already exists in standard women's sizes, surely expanding that so it can fit anyone is only lessening gender constraints? How is trying to restrict it only to biological women helping anything?

www.pinknews.co.uk/2019/03/01/anti-trans-protest-over-pornographic-transgender-lingerie-fashion-show

I'm not attacking you

I disagree with you

I think you are missing quite a big piece of this puzzle

I am trying to make you think

If you don't want to that's OK

But seems a bit off, when you are so happy to attack the actions of all respected feminists with years of activism under their belts

Well respected

Autocorrect

The trans issue intersects with a lot of what is going on in feminist thought. That's the only reason the fucking topic is on these boards in the first place. When Munroe Bergdoff is parading around in skimpies, defining women by it, and an industry is springing up as more men feel emboldened to display their kinks which are predicated on deeply unhelpful notions of female attire, then I think if some women felt they wanted to protest it, they would be well within their rights.

And if you don't want to compare feminists to EDL supporters, I suggest not doing it.

OP people may be angry but no one has threatened you, said you should be punched, doxxed you/reported you to your employer or told you to die in a fire etc so please don’t imply the women here are in any way comparable to the TRAs.

The problem with it is lingerie is generally perceived as being worn by women to make them sexually attractive to men (with no counter balancing expectation, hence sardine’s post). This ties in with a concern about trans ideology that it draws upon a vision of womanhood that is tailored towards the needs of men eg wearing make up, posing provocatively etc

This obviously isn’t true of all trans women but there is a definite theme running through.

I’ve read through the thread again OP and I can’t see where someone has attacked you. Was it on a different thread? Can you link to it please, in the interests of fairness, obviously. I will of course acknowledge and report where attacks have taken place.

Needs of men as in sexual needs/desires of men

sparrow, I note that in your last post before my previous post, you were quite resigned and accepting of gender norms and restrictions. I agree with you that gendered expectations are the problem. That's why I think protesting against them in lots of different ways is a good thing, and not just shrugging and saying 'that's the way it is'

@McTufty

I wasn't suggesting people had threatened violence or similar, I just think there are parallels in terms of the anger at any sort of dissent. Maybe it's a general talking about politics online thing.

I agree with you that there's that thread in trans conceptions of womanhood, but it's part of wider conceptions of womanhood. It's not surprising to me that people who feel they were born in the wrong body would want to confirm to the same norms everyone who perceives themselves as a woman is told they should conform to.

I do know about the nastier stuff, like the sissification fetish that really does seem akin to blackface or something, where the sexual stimulation comes from the idea being a woman is degrading, I just don't think that's the same as having gender dysphoria.

Online conversation isn't the same as real life, and trans people are often still very marginalised. I do think protests like this just seem like nasty targeting of a marginalised community. The argument isn't that feminists should never do anything that alienates people, it's that this seems pretty cruel for very little gain.

‘Furthering Women’s Rights’?

‘Protecting’ is more apt.

Male people who consider the most limiting aspects of sex-stereotypes to be the key aspects of womanhood are part of the problem, and ignoring that won’t bring us to any solutions.

I think op has decided that disagreement means attacking. Funny how some people always get those two mixed up

@FloralBuntingIsObnoxious OK, but protesting exclusively against the single lingerie brand catering for trans people isn't a general protest against gender norms. It's specifically targeting trans people for something that doesn't directly affect anyone but those trans people themselves, and which I think has to come under the category of individual freedoms even if people make very strong critiques of the social conditions in which demand for the products arises.

Anger op?
Do point it out

sparrow

I agree the trans community is marginalised and I am very open to respectful discussion about how best to resolve issues where women’s rights and trans rights collide. Such a stance gets me called a T**f so 🤷🏻‍♀️

This isn’t the issue I feel most strongly about personally but I understand why others do as it does seem like trans women reinforcing gender stereotypes and expectations to validate their own identity.

Ultimately, I think that people with gender dysphoria are struggling and deserve sympathy. I don't think the entire concept of trans is simply a fetish and a trick to overstep women's boundaries. I think this while having serious objections to many aspects of the current pro-trans agenda.

You're entitled to support whatever tactics you choose to pursue whatever your goals are, but I think the difference of opinion I describe above is why I think this protest seems spiteful and nasty, and many of you vehemently disagree.

OP keeps using the cis word. I wonder why?

‘Spiteful’ and ‘nasty’ are rather loaded terms... and not generally ones aimed at men...

I think you might have a touch of the ol’ Internalised misogyny going on, OP.

@Trousering I used cis/natal because I'm happy with either term, both are widely understood and accurately convey my meaning.

What's your theory?

@BettyDuMonde I used spiteful to describe Sajid Javid on Facebook about a week ago. I use nasty all the time.

I can see this isn't going anywhere constructive, though. You're extremely unhappy that I've criticised the protest so you're going to retaliate by finding things to criticise me for.

@SpartacusAutisticusAHF cis is banned why, and by who?

You really aren’t a regular here, are you?

Pinned post: www.mumsnet.com/info/trans-rights-moderation-policy