How is this anything to do with furthering women's rights?

[SparrowNest]

I'm sympathetic to many radfem arguments, but I can't for the life of me understand how opposing lacy lingerie being made to fit a wider range of bodies helps women.

Given that similar lingerie already exists in standard women's sizes, surely expanding that so it can fit anyone is only lessening gender constraints? How is trying to restrict it only to biological women helping anything?

www.pinknews.co.uk/2019/03/01/anti-trans-protest-over-pornographic-transgender-lingerie-fashion-show

Well, other sites are other sites. Woman for woman works just fine here, we'll know what you mean.

Your continued use of @ after you've been asked not to, and politely told why it is not the done thing here, makes me think you may be deliberately trying to provoke people. Which does not reflect well on you. At all.

Christ. I used @ in one more message, which I sent before I read the two asking me not to and explaining that it sends the messages to inboxes.

Were you all milk monitors at school?

Sparrow, no problem, that's why it's been mentioned politely. The convention here tends to be holding or part of someone's name or quoting what you specifically want to reply to.

Bolding not holding. Bloody autocorrect.

FloralBunting Ok, that's what I'll do from now on! Thank you for explaining the convention.

Did we just get a lecture on being able to understand the meaning of the word woman?

And being on MN more because you're pregnant for the first time? It is a gateway to radicalization, you realize? (Pregnancy and MN both)

Trousering Lecture? Are you denying that if I simply used the word women when discussing trans related issues in many contexts, people wouldn't necessarily know if I was including trans women or not?

I do believe we did, Trousering. But since the OP's whole aim appears to be to tell us we are feministing wrong, this is not an entirely unexpected turn for the conversation (I use that word in its loosest sense) to take.

Ah, go easy, you vipers. There is actually such a thing as a genuine newbie. Not every visitor is a hairy handed trucker.

It's getting more and more male centred!

Trans identifying males are not included in the word woman.

It is only among a tiny minority of people that the phrase "transwomen are women" is taken to be literal truth. For the vast majority of people it is at best a polite fiction, and more often likely to lead to a facial expression which looks either like or like .

Most of us view "transwomen are women" as akin to "and now the bread and wine turns into the body and blood of Christ": a statement of religious belief which only a tiny handful of true believers actually accept.

Sparrow, trust me, here, if you use the word woman, most of us will assume you mean women, not male bodied people who believe themselves to be women.

FloralBunting I've always found the "biological sex doesn't matter" stuff maddening. I'm pretty close to the standard gender critical perspective on many issues, which isn't the norm in my social circles.

I just do believe people with gender dysphoria are genuinely struggling, and that it's good to treat people who're struggling with compassion. I don't think that's incompatible with rejecting the concept of innate brain gender and attempts to push those ideas on children, thinking that a significant proportion of women's oppression is rooted in biology, and believing its important to preserve single-sex spaces.

Nothing wrong with satirising men who are actively taking the piss out of us, then using the fact that they perform caricatures of women, as an excuse to invade our privacy, ignore our right to consent. Imagine performing blackface then whining about your hurt little fee-fees when you're satirised in return, by the people you're mocking. Oh no, we must never mock the men who mock us, even as they sabotage our basic rights. They might have a tiny sad.

AnotherBewilderedQuoll The blackface analogy makes more sense to me with drag. I suppose the obvious comparison with trans identity is Rachel Dolezal. I think she's genuinely struggling too and that she should have been shown more compassion than she was. That isn't to say she should have been allowed to continue holding positions reserved for black people.

Sparrow I wouldn't disagree in the slightest. I think compassion is important. It's just that in a priority list, my compassion will be focused on women and girls primarily, and if something will be detrimental to them, that will affect my actions.

Different women approach this differently- we all have our hot buttons, and personalities that gel better with some things than others. I am sometimes a street activist, sometimes a letter writer or researcher or analyst, sometimes a cup of tea maker and a hug giver.

But all of it is motivated by women's liberation - I centre women. I have compassion for others, for sure. But my energies are very female focused.

Have a look at the trans widows thread sparrow if you have some sympathy looking for a home.

Congratulations on the pregnancy sparrow!

I sort of wish I knew some people who tow the trans ideology line so I could actually cross examine ask them about it without them being able to use their usual smoke and mirrors tactics and hide behind “bigot” etc.

I too am very sympathetic to those with gender dysphoria - total myth that being gender critical means you hate trans people or are trying to erase them. Please stick around - I also don’t agree with some of the posters on here about trans issues, we aren’t all of one mind; the debate is robust but you can speak freely!

FloralBunting I get that, and I do think demands for empathy towards trans people have often been used as a justification for totally sidelining the rights and interests of women and girls.

I suppose it's just that with something like lingerie being made in trans sizes, the scale is tipped totally in one direction for me. The harm it causes seems to be minimal (even if demand for it is the product of a harmful culture) and the benefits of showing compassion are much greater.

No, is that a problem? I didn't realise this was a local board for local people, I thought it was a forum on a popular parenting website where women discuss feminism and related issues

I was merely commenting on the fact that you aren’t aware of the posting guidelines. Making posts that aren’t in accordance with the guidelines will get you banned.

Then I gave you a link to the guidelines. I was actually trying to be helpful but I’m starting to wish I just said ODFOD instead.

Trousering That's actually one of the threads I have lurked on. I have a lot of sympathy. I think people can be struggling themselves and also be deeply harmful to people close to them. I don't know whether or not I think gender dysphoria is a mental illness, exactly, but I do think mental illness is a good example of something that can often hurt both individuals themselves and their loved ones.

McTufty Thanks! I know a lot of people with those views, and when I try and discuss things with them I end up feeling judged and guilty for having concerns that I know are entirely reasonable and not motivated by hate. People see it as very black and white, akin to gay rights in the 1980s. It's hard to get across that rights might be in conflict, even though it seems very simple to understand. People seem quite invested in not thinking too hard about it.

Betty Ok, sorry to be so brittle.