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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Rapper Zuby breaks British Women's deadlift record...

312 replies

TransposersArePosers · 27/02/2019 10:17

I have just seen this on the www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/a3518988-Rachel-McKinnon-weightlifter-and-Abigail-Shrier#prettyPhoto thread posted by Clitherow and felt it needed a separate mention. If I was on twitter I'd follow him!

twitter.com/ZubyMusic/status/1100348562041462784

Clitherow wrote:

Don't know if this link has come through - never done this before, but rapper Zuby breaks British women's deadlifting record (whatever that is - sport not my thing) whilst identifying as a woman - pisses off Rachel Mckinnon and gains 2500 followers in 24 hours

OP posts:
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McTufty · 05/03/2019 12:03

bertrandrussell

There are some viciously nasty people masquerading as “feminists” on twitter - stavvers and her ilk

FloralBuntingIsObnoxious · 05/03/2019 13:09

Yup, I'm agreeing with WeRiseUp about there being no need to believe that someone has an indefinable essential soul in a religious sense to hold that every human is an unrepeatable unique individual. You don't need to believe in any kind of metaphysical reality to want to protect human life.

The pro choice strength isn't really in proving that the unborn aren't human in a meaningful sense. It's in pointing out the HUGE problems in disregarding the personal autonomy of a woman to not go through 9 months of a process that carries with it significant risks, even though it involves another person.

Floisme · 05/03/2019 13:35

Let's put it another way: When it comes to carrying and birthing a child, women do 100% of the work and take on 100% of the risk.

Hopefully by now, Zuby you have done a little more research and have realised that these risks are not small and that many of us us live with the consequences for the rest of our lives. Of course you are still entitled to your opinions - everyone is - but can you please explain why you think women should pay any attention to them?

hackmum · 05/03/2019 14:34

The pro choice strength isn't really in proving that the unborn aren't human in a meaningful sense. It's in pointing out the HUGE problems in disregarding the personal autonomy of a woman to not go through 9 months of a process that carries with it significant risks, even though it involves another person.

Yes. Essentially you weigh up the right of the unborn foetus/baby to life vs the right of the woman not to have to carry an unwanted pregnancy to term. That's why some of us feel less comfortable about late abortion (except in extreme cases) because the balance tips the other way.

In any case, there are problems with making abortion illegal. In countries where abortion is illegal, abortion still happens, but it risks the life of the mother as well as the baby. And of course we've also seen women sentenced to years of imprisonment for illegal abortion in some countries - sometimes even when they have miscarried the baby. I can't believe that this is a good outcome for anyone.

ILoveMaxiBondi · 05/03/2019 14:41

When it comes to carrying and birthing a child, women do 100% of the work and take on 100% of the risk.

Exactly.

Who is anyone to decide that someone else must take those risks? It must be an individual’s choice.

EweSurname · 05/03/2019 16:01

Good interview (on BBC radio!). The difference in how Zuby has been interviewed and other people on this issue is pretty clear - he's not treated as an abhorrent person who is trying to cause all trans people to cease existing for a start.

www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/p072jncn

Still fucking astounding this is being framed as a contentious thing that needs settling - I mean, the segment is called "Does being born a man give you an advantage physically over women in sport" ffs

Katvonfelttipeyebrows · 05/03/2019 16:15

Aww Zuby comes across great on that clip.

Uptheapplesandpears · 05/03/2019 16:26

Hi @zubymusic, well done for last week.

In addition to some of the excellent points made by fellow posters about your stance on abortion, I'd like to flesh out the things you're discussing as solutions. In particular, are you under the impression that we as a society are going to be able to do a decent job looking after all the unwanted babies that would be born if abortion weren't possible?

Look at some stats. There are about 180,000 abortions each year in the UK to resident women. Let's kindly assume that half of these are to women who'd find ways to not get pregnant if they knew they couldn't get an abortion (I have my doubts but I'll give you it for the sake of argument). Do you really think there are 90,000 individual or pairs of parents ready and able to do a good job of looking after these babies, every year? This seems massively over optimistic: there is a shortage of babies to adopt in the UK when compared to the number of people wanting to adopt them, but not to that tune.

It's not even just a question of providing the resources to allow these children to be looked after. Because that's the easy part, although the stuff you have posted on twitter about how people should work for things they want makes me think you might not be particularly child tax credits anyway? It's also about providing children with people who actually want to look after them. You can't force that. Children are bloody hard work, take it from some of us who have more experience looking after them than you do. You might think you have some idea how hard, but unless you're a parent yourself which I don't think you are, then you don't. It's a recipe for resentment at absolute best. Bad things happen to children who are resented.

Fundamentally, it's not like we don't know very well what happens when more children are bought into the world than there are people willing and able to look after them. It's orphanages, at best, and societies coming up with mechanisms to get rid of them at worst. You're pro-orphanage.

TwitterLovesMAPs · 05/03/2019 21:33

It’s very easy for men to men to moralise on abortion. To them it will only ever be something they need to think about in the abstract.

If you will never get pregnant or give birth, it’s not really something you’re ever going to be able to have a truly informed opinion on.

Before I had children I was staunchly pro-choice. Now I have experienced pregnancy and birth I’m still pro-choice, but for me the issue has many nuances that it didn’t have before.

Personally, I could never now have an abortion. Whereas before I had children, if I’d found myself in that situation, the decision would have been easier.

That said, I now have firsthand insight into the toll pregnancy, birth and child rearing takes on women physically and mentally. Carrying a child to term and birthing it is physically exhausting and emotionally profound. To suggest a woman can just ‘have a baby and then put it up for adoption if she doesn’t want it’ is offensively facile.

I had a miscarriage before my two children were born. I mourned the potential that that pregnancy had. I grieved for what might have been. But in no way did I consider that embryo a ‘soul’ or a living human. In fact to suggest that it was is offensive to parents who have actually lost children. A miscarriage or abortion is potential life never realised. It is no way even in the same universe as the loss of a life.

You say that it’s demonstrably untrue that western women still suffer under a patriarchy. If you read the threads on here and on the relationships boards you’ll see that women are certainly still very much subjugated by men. And child rearing is a significant tool in holding women back. It limits their career options, making them financially reliant on men who may be abusive. Or it makes them financially reliant on the state. The potential consequences of having children - even planned ones - are serious and far-reaching. Two years of maternity leaves definitely damaged my career. Before my first child was born my husband and I earned the same salary. Five years later mine has reduced by £10k (because i need to work part time because of childcare limitations) while his salary has now doubled. We both had two children together. But his career has flourished and mine has foundered. The reason for that? I was the one who was pregnant, who gave birth and who breastfed and reared our babies. No patriarchy? Ha!

Two women are murdered every week by their partners in the UK. 72% of those murders happen at the point of relationship separation, ie. when the woman tries to leave. Male violence against women is a very real and present threat. Many women who live with physically or mentally abusive partners know that staying with their abuser is the only thing keeping them alive.

You say you’re not ignorant or uneducated but I don’t see how you can be cognisant of these facts and still come to the conclusion that the patriarchy is a thing of the past.

I’m pleased you’re here Zuby, I’m pleased you’re engaging with this. Stick around and read a few more threads. I do hope that you’ll at least be open to looking through different lenses at these issues.

Powergower · 05/03/2019 22:08

Welcome zuby! Thank you for posting but more importantly thank you for your intervention in the trans-sports issue. You've really shone a light in a way that women/ feminists have failed to do. Ironic isn't it then that you think it's a falsehood that we live in a patriarchal world.

Just as I would raise an eyebrow if a white person tells me there is no racism, I can't really take a bloke seriously when he says patriarchy doesn't really exist. You slid rethink your views on feminists. We are not one homogenous mass, we are diverse, varied and interesting.

Re abortion, I found your views interesting. I am also kind of pro life and pro choice in the sense that I believe woman have the right to make decisions about their bodies. But your comments did give me some food for thought so thank you. I hope you return, if only to discuss other ways in which you can help further our cause in the sports debate. Ultimately, I'm sure you'll agree, this isn't a feminist cause at all. It's an issue pertinent to us all.

dontdoxmeeither · 05/03/2019 22:19

Hi @zubymusic I also thank you for the deadlift. Bloody brilliant.

I also respectfully disagree with your stance on abortion and would ask you to look into "birth injuries" should you wish.

Hoping that the momentum keeps gathering on the trans sports issue. I have followed you on Twitter but am unable to comment on there due to the nature of being GC versus my livelihood Sad

Iused2BanOptimist · 06/03/2019 11:29

Hi Zuby

Meant to be working so I'm just going to say
I have been enjoying some of your podcasts and you've got a gorgeous voice to listen to!
Great post upthread too. And of course delighted by your contribution to the sports debate. Smile

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