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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Rapper Zuby breaks British Women's deadlift record...

312 replies

TransposersArePosers · 27/02/2019 10:17

I have just seen this on the www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/a3518988-Rachel-McKinnon-weightlifter-and-Abigail-Shrier#prettyPhoto thread posted by Clitherow and felt it needed a separate mention. If I was on twitter I'd follow him!

twitter.com/ZubyMusic/status/1100348562041462784

Clitherow wrote:

Don't know if this link has come through - never done this before, but rapper Zuby breaks British women's deadlifting record (whatever that is - sport not my thing) whilst identifying as a woman - pisses off Rachel Mckinnon and gains 2500 followers in 24 hours

OP posts:
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Floisme · 05/03/2019 09:58

Welcome to the vipers' nest Zuby

Thanks for dropping in. Pull up a chair and have a Brew while we read your post in full. Forgive us if it takes some time as it's rather long. (Do I mention that this is often the case when men post on here? Ok I won't.)

Katvonfelttipeyebrows · 05/03/2019 10:02

We have interesting discussions here, we are not the borg. As individuals we have divergent beliefs and commentators reflect that.

Myself, I would not choose to have an abortion (And I have been in the position), but respect others rights to choose what's right for them.

As for you Mr Zuby, you've really helped us with your humour and your excellent down to earth points. So thank you for making them!

ErrolTheDragon · 05/03/2019 10:04

In this instance, I don't think a long post is unreasonable, as it's by the person that the thread is about.

ALittleBitofVitriol · 05/03/2019 10:06

Nice to see you here Zuby, thanks for adding your voice to the trans sport discussion. I quite like what I listened to of your music too, not sure that a middle aged mum helps your cred! (Even if we did listen to wu tang, busta, public enemy etc back in the day!)

Might I just suggest, as I'm sure you know the conservatives viewpoint often gets mangled and misrepresented in mainstream media, that much of the mainstream feminism you've likely seen has similarly been hijacked.
Feminism isn't a monolith either, we are strong women with strong opinions!
I'm not saying that you need to immediately become a feminist ally, I'm just saying that if you give the real us a fair hearing, you might be surprised.

Rufusthebewilderedreindeer · 05/03/2019 10:08

What kat said

And I appreciate errols point, but it was awfully long

I did really well to finish it...it was probably the spacing that helped

Spaces rule

FloralBuntingIsObnoxious · 05/03/2019 10:09

Pfft. I'm pro life too. From the perspective of the sanctity of all human life. I often make the case for it here, where I am listened to, argued and disagreed with, and there is useful discussion.

What I don't do is leap in two footed and tell everyone their beliefs and viewpoints are wrong and they are awful. Because that would earn me a biscuit and make me sound very much like a man.

But you crack on.

BernardBlacksWineIcelolly · 05/03/2019 10:14

Yes Rufus, lovely use of paragraphs and spacing

you may have another Star Zuby to go with the Star for your nice clear enunciation

including the one that the modern western world is an oppressive ‘patriarchy’. I think it is utter nonsense and demonstrably false

great. Demonstrate it

BertrandRussell · 05/03/2019 10:15

“There are some really awful individual ‘feminists’ and ‘feminist groups’ out there“

Whenever anyone says things like this I ask for examples-and I never, ever get them. It’s very odd.

Oh well. As I said before -Zuby doesn’t have to be a feminist or a feminist ally to be a useful resource. And he is certainly a useful resource when it comes to the protection of women’s sport.

Nutellavore · 05/03/2019 10:15

Thanks for engaging, Zuby, and as you can see, many here are happy to agree to disagree. Personal attacks are not nice (and probably not uncommon for a person in public life) but this is one of the few places online where women can speak on a range of issues without constantly self-censoring. Sad but true.

I happen to agree abortion is a very complex ethical issue. The fewer women are put in the heartbreaking situation of an unwanted pregnancy, the better. That’s why it’s so important that we are clear about biological realities. Thanks for helping with that.

Despite some great developments recently (speaking out about sexual harassment on public transport, in schools etc. - btw, have you any idea what it’s like to be humiliated in this way?) feminism is in crisis. If a movement stops centering the people it’s about, it has lost its way.

Final point: you do realise how recent women’s gains are? Marital rape only made a crime in the 1990s. Vote for not even all women only achieved 100 years ago. We can’t afford to be complacent.

And now I’ll let you get on with selling a few more t-shirts ;-)

crumpet · 05/03/2019 10:19

Zuby, if you spend a bit of time looking around these boards you will find plenty of examples of situations where despite responsible use contraception has failed or where medical issues mean a risk to the life of the mother or the baby, and let’s not discount pregnancy resulting from rape. Irresponsibility is not the only (or even the main) reason for abortion, but for some reason tends to be the focus for those who are pro life.

hackmum · 05/03/2019 10:30

Well, I'm still glad Zuby did the deadlifting thing. It brought a lot of attention to the cause and highlighted the absolute absurdity of allowing men to compete against women. There are lots of people who aren't really bothered about women in prison or women in refuges but do understand the simple, stark unfairness of allowing a big, strong, tall, muscular man to compete against female athletes.

And I'm glad that Zuby came along here to share his view on feminism even though I don't agree with it. You never know, he might hang around and discover we're not as dreadful as we're made out to be. Smile

WeRiseUp · 05/03/2019 11:01

Hi Zuby Thanks for checking in.

I am a proud feminist and see it as an honour to be in some way shaped by, educated and lifted up by women's campaigning, courage, tenacity, wit and resourcefulness over the centuries.

I yawn every time I hear feminism 'needs a re-brand' - because it is so often said by people who have been taken in by the perennial anti-feminist efforts to smear, demonise and misrepresent feminism. When they get a bit closer, find out the truth, find out how pressing, serious and necessary feminism is, from FGM to securing a rape conviction, for example, they have a light-bulb moment, then.... three.... two.... one.... "We need to re-brand feminism!".

It is totally predictable.

But, of course, the new word would just be subject to the same onslaught - so what benefit would changing it or re-branding it bring?

The fact is that feminism challenges and threatens the status quo, so the beneficiaries of structural inequality will kick back hard to maintain it.

However, feminists need to persist, despite being under constant attack, because we have no other choice. We can't stop. We can't stop the attacks. All we can focus on is the hope that the truth will win out in the end.

Something that is most galling though, is the tactic of anti-feminists calling themselves feminists and trying to split us from the inside. A lot of men who support the industrial sexual abuse and exploitation of women are real Machiavellian bastards who claim to be 'feminists' and join feminist groups, taking in young and gullible women, who now do their work for them. They are not feminists, they are anti-feminist. Many of these anti-feminists are who you probably see as feminists.

Any way Zuby, I appreciate what you have done and I appreciate that you have engaged will us and are willing to engage feminists on your platform.

Wine
FrancisCrawford · 05/03/2019 11:09

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Bowlofbabelfish · 05/03/2019 11:12

Hi zuby

It was a good stunt. It’s got people who would never have talked about it doing so.

Your views on abortion are your own. One can be pro life while not seeking to restrict women’s bodily autonomy. However if you seek to restrict women’s access to abortion then that IS forcing something on women. But you dont say you’re a feminist and you dont need to be so. You’ve done a single action which has benefitted the cause, you don’t need to make all your views 100% feminist.

Anyway, one thing stood out for me: A large % of both men and women have a negative perception of modern feminism and it’s hard to blame us.

I agree that the perception of feminism in the media is very negative. What I’d like to ask you is why do you think this is so?

The feminism featured in the media is mainly the liberal sort that strips for attention on brexit debates and thinks pole dancing is empowering. That’s easy to mock. But it’s not the only type of feminism. I would encourage you to chat to your older female relatives - their feminism may be of a very very different sort - ‘not the fun kind’ as I like to say ;) .

The sort of feminism that focuses on women’s RIGHTS is less media friendly and really not even featured in he media is it? Southall black sisters for example - they don’t make the news like brexit stripping lady. Again, why do you think that is so?

Anyway, views on abortion aside, think about why feminism is demonised in the media and why only the ‘fun’ feminists get into the media? Who does that benefit?

Perhaps you could challenge Rachel McKinnon to a bike ride? I’m sure all of us would enjoy that

Floisme · 05/03/2019 11:17

OK I've not finished Zuby's post yet but I've got this far:

I accept there are exceptions - rare 1-2% of cases may include rape, genuine health risks to the mother

You say you're not ignorant, and yet you display astonishing ignorance of what pregnancy and childbirth does to a woman's body. And I'm not talking about the awful cases where things go badly wrong, I'm just talking about the routine, everyday deliveries.

To be fair, that's probably true of most men and indeed of many women. We don't tend to talk about this stuff very often, even among ourselves because we know people are going to go, 'Eww'. But can I suggest, Zuby that you go away and google a few terms like post childbirth incontinence - faecal and urinary? Or vaginal tearing? Better still, ask any women in your family who have had children. And then see if you want to come back and lecture us some more about 'genuine health risks'.

Thank you.

BernardBlacksWineIcelolly · 05/03/2019 11:23

tut Floisme

Zuby has done tens of hours of research. Do not question him.

Floisme · 05/03/2019 11:25

Oh I haven't got to the part about research yet.

Yarnswift · 05/03/2019 11:26

zuby

Both my pregnancies (very much wanted) did serious physical damage to my body. I’m being investigated for an autoimmune condition that seems to have been triggered by pregnancy, which may limit my lifespan, and I have permanent pelvic damage that leaves me in constant pain daily and impairs my physical mobility. I am also partially deaf from birth complications. I was sick up to 50x a day during both pregnancies too as I had hyperemesis and my teeth and throat are wrecked.

Almost every woman I know has some type of damage (google ‘episiotomy’ please...)

I could technically have another baby but to do so would cripple me. My friend who gave birth at the same time had her pelvis broken by forceps. Birth injuries are NOT 1-2%. Rape is endemic.

You can be pro life, but as a man you do NOT get to tell women what they must or must not do.

Cheers. The deadlift stuff was funny, well done on that.

LangCleg · 05/03/2019 11:27

As some have correctly pointed out, I believe that human life is sacred, the unborn child/fetus is a human life and that innocent human life should be protected.

So you think an embryo of a few days development has some kind of intrinsic personhood, a soul basically, that is separate from the pregnant woman whose body supports it?

Do you then also credit transactivists when they assert that they have a gender identity, a soul basically, that was born in the wrong body?

Both seem to me to be equally theocratic beliefs.

wheresmymojo · 05/03/2019 11:33

Less of the 'old women' not being his fan base though!

I'm about the same age as him/her and mostly listen to hip hop and rap.

Granted, I suspect most of the artists I listen to don't imagine me (white, female, mid-30s, Home Counties, senior manager in Pensions) as their target population though Grin

OVAgroundWOMBlingfree · 05/03/2019 11:40

Perhaps look into the figures for birth injuries, birth trauma and PND.

WeRiseUp · 05/03/2019 11:43

Tbf Lang though. A mate of mine had an abortion at 17 and I remember being a bit confused that my, I now realise, somewhat facile and overconfident reassurances that she could have a baby later anyway because living her life now is important, were met with "But it won't be the same. It will be a different person. I can't just have the same baby later". Bless her. Now I'm a mum and birthed such strong and different personalities, I know what she meant.

So although a collection of cells is not the same as a fully grown person, a zygote is a unique individual even if there isn't such thing as a soul.

That doesn't mean the zygote should have the same rights as a person, but it doesn't mean you have to believe in disembodied souls to think of them as unique individuals either.

drspouse · 05/03/2019 11:49

@zubymusic

Glad to see you on this thread and thank you for engaging. We hope you stick around and learn more about women's lives, about why we are feminists, and about what's NOT wrong about calling yourself a feminist.

In the meantime, do you fancy:
Signing up to an All Women Shortlist in the Labour party?
Joining the Girl Guides as a leader?
Going for a swim in the Hampstead Women's Pool?

All of which you are amply qualified for.

Backseatonthebus · 05/03/2019 11:52

I've forgotten who said it recently - I think Natasha Chart - but setting aside purity politics and pragmatically treating those with whom we disagree as a resource is the clever thing to do, especially in times such as these. If I see people that get us closer to our objectives as resources instead of allies I'll be far more likely to be able to achieve something worthwhile.

Yes, that's it exactly, I've been struggling to find the right words to explain how I feel about Piers Morgan's input, but yes, he is a resource.

abuseofpowercomesasnosurprise · 05/03/2019 12:00

Regarding my ‘feminist status’ – I’ve been very clear for years that I do not ‘identify’ as such (heh).

This is not because I am ignorant, uneducated, nor against equal rights for both sexes - but because I have major issues with much of the ideology, delusion, hypocrisy and frankly nastiness exhibited by many who cling to the title.

I am not alone in this. A large % of both men and women have a negative perception of modern feminism and it’s hard to blame us. There are some really awful individual ‘feminists’ and ‘feminist groups’ out there...

I too am reluctant nowadays to define myself as a feminist, because what the mainstream understands as feminism is liberal feminism - petty arguments policing language and the wearing of T-shirts with pin-ups on them etc. However, so long as there are 2.5 murders of women per week,1038 rapes recorded each week and the 20,500 reports of domestic violence reported to the police each week in England and Wales (Office of National Statistics 2017) I will continue to campaign for the rights of women.

I'm glad that you are willing to have a conversation and invite some feminists on your podcast, please take the opportunity to consider the range of feminist opinions out there that you may not have heard before due to the media's focus on the 'juicy' lib-fem stories. You seem like a reasonable guy but really, 'tens of hours' of research when you're speaking to women who are Doctors and campaigners who have been researching in this field for longer than you have been alive makes you sound more than a little arrogant and naive - Mumsnetters don't just push prams around all day...