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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Baby steps in being publicly gender critical - help!

37 replies

GCBabySteps · 25/02/2019 18:30

I've name-changed in case you haven't guessed!

I've recently shared a few articles on the dreaded Facebook - Martina's article in the Times and their story on Ruth Hunt's resignation.

There's been some good-natured debate on the recent post, with both sides agreeing on the whole. But it's now being piled on by a very woke friend who is parroting the TWAW line, along with "trans woman have NO advantage over cis women" in relation to sports.

Also, in the last 5 minutes I've had someone ask what women's rights trans rights remove.

I really wish I had a quick list of rebuttals to these inane arguments. My tendency is to eyeroll and say "for fuck's sake it's common sense" but that's not very eloquent!!

On the other hand, I had one friend thank me for putting into words what she's been feeling for a while, so it's not all bad!

I also replied to a tweet by the famous cyclist.... I haven't done anything bad enough yet to be banned. But then I wimped out and deleted it Blush

Please folks (I can still use folks can't I?), give me courage to carry on (and some helpful one liners wouldn't go amiss either!)

OP posts:
Xiaoxiong · 27/02/2019 10:58

I've just posted a video of detransitioned women on FB with a very woke-y spiel about "needing to listen to all voices" and am preparing for my kicking. But if I don't speak up then who will. I'm just hoping that other friends will be silently watching, even if I get a pile-on.

GCBabySteps · 28/02/2019 02:59

@Xiaoxiong
Good luck! I've had a couple of thank yous (one private, one public) for putting my head above the parapet, so I'm being spurred on to continue.

I think some of my other friends are either scared to agree with me, or just think it's nothing that will ever affect them, so are ignoring it. Or they're just bored and want me to revert to sharing cat pictures....

Scarily, the wokest person responding "ah but transwomen are women" etc etc is a primary school teacher. I dread to think what message she may be (perhaps unwittingly) giving her pupils. "Of course you can become a girl Bernard, just put on a frock and glittery nail varnish............"

OP posts:
R0wantrees · 28/02/2019 08:57

see important current thread with many eloquent responses.

OP Glinner wrote:

"I'd like to collect some anecdotes about when and why you first became involved in the debate about gender ideology and activism. I've also asked on Twitter but thought this might be good for longer answers.

Please tell me your stories!"
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/a3518546-help-a-brother-out

R0wantrees · 28/02/2019 09:09

Scarily, the wokest person responding "ah but transwomen are women" etc etc is a primary school teacher. I dread to think what message she may be (perhaps unwittingly) giving her pupils. "Of course you can become a girl Bernard, just put on a frock and glittery nail varnish............"

The Primary School teacher may have attended a Mermaids training session.

Imherefornow Sat 22-Dec-18 wrote:
"Here are the links to the transcripts thanks to a wonderful mumsnet collaboration. Share as you will smile

docs.google.com/document/d/1NDOMlo2aEpBl2ySfKdEWCb1H94tZciKiqUffjH1ku0Y/edit?usp=sharing

docs.google.com/document/d/1aeFV0T6j4PXvm1xZBS_50oSJYV-_gO8YMoFjKjNA_9Y/edit?usp=sharing
thread
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3454658-recording-of-mermaids-training

Times article by Janice Turner,
'Trans ideologists are spreading cod science
Those who defend controversial charity’s right to a £500,000 lottery grant should really listen to what it is preaching'
(extract)
re you a Princess Barbie jelly-baby who likes frilly dresses, high heels and takes ages to get ready? Or a GI Joe jelly-baby who wears boots and functional clothing? Did you know that your preference for pink sparkles or muddy sports isn’t down to societal expectations of boys and girls. No, it’s written in your chromosomes. And that’s science.

Well, science according to Mermaids, the charity for trans children, in a presentation understood to be given to thousands of teachers, health workers, police and politicians, and part-funded by the Department for Education.

I listened to a recording of this bizarre 90-minute training lecture and wish others could too. Particularly those who pride themselves on rationality and evidence-based thinking: atheists, fans of Richard Dawkins and Ben Goldacre’s Bad Science; those incensed by climate change deniers on TV or creationists in schools; the same people who are tweeting #istandwithmermaids because the Big Lottery Fund is reviewing, in the light of an outcry, its decision to award them a £500,000 grant.

On tape the Mermaids trainer tells us that humans don’t come in two sexes, male and female, sperm and ovum: “Most people still think that way,” she says airily. “But what we know now, thanks to advances in science, is that the human race has up to 42 different sets of chromosomes.”
Biological sex is on a spectrum, she says, like skin tone and (seriously) bra size. A person’s “gender identity jelly baby” has nothing to do with how we are raised: it is inside you at birth. You know you are a man because you walk like a man and like “manly” things. A listener questions why this lecture is based upon stereotypes and is told “you’re going too clever”.(continues)

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/trans-ideologists-are-spreading-cod-science-m8n0pdbq3?shareToken=eb2c06153578d29f71c393769844ab17

current threads identifying issues with translobby groups impact on Primary school policy:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3517230-Stonewall-champion-School-primary

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3518315-Allsorts-school-assemblies

March 2018 TransgenderTrend article:
'Who Is Making Policy For Schools?'
(extract)
The image above shows a presentation from a local Southend trans support group called Transpire, founded by a 54 year-old transsexual male called Gina Denham who teaches children that we all have a ‘gender identity’ which exists in the womb and is independent of both our socialisation and our biological sex. It is this ‘gender identity’ which makes us a boy or a girl and actually being male or female is irrelevant.

Transpire recently forced a school to change its policies in service of this ideology. Under the guise of ‘inclusion’ and ‘integration’ Gina Denham led an aggressive campaign to force a school in Rochford to remove sex-based rights and protections for its female students.

The trans pupil in question has been known by the Transpire group for two years so has presumably been thoroughly conditioned into the belief that he is literally female. As with Lily Madigan at his school in Kent, this one pupil has been afforded the power to change policy affecting all other pupils at the school with the help of a powerful transgender lobby." (continues)
www.transgendertrend.com/who-is-making-policy-for-schools/

Ribbonsonabox · 28/02/2019 12:02

What rights do wwe lose?
Well the right over ownership of the meaning of the word 'woman'.. not only has that word been used as a tool of oppression but now men want it back for themselves if they feel like using it!! Leaving us even less than 'from men's but as actually having to accept a label which means that we 'identify' as what we were told we were.... I mean ffs. Its like saying we have to agree to our own oppr3sion just to be able to talk about ourselves... and the catch 22 is that if we dont and we all say 'well fuck that then I'll identify as non binary' it wont actually stop our oppression which is based on our reproductive system, it will just leave us without the language to organise against and express our experience of oppression.

Trans women trying to get us to call ourselves 'cis' and declaring that their lived experience is exactly the same as that of someone born with a vagina is completely rewriting our own personhood.
Feminists have fought for a long time for equality based on the differences between men and women being physical not psychological or spiritual.. and therefore meaning we are entitled to the same rights and respect as any other human being, with our physical differences taken into consideration and protected under law. They have fought to try and make so being a man or a woman means no type of behaviour or lifestyle or appearance.. it's simply means which genitals you happen to have.. and they did this so that men and women can live free of stupid societal gender expectations which harm us all.

Now we are supposed to accept that 'woman' is in fact a state of mind or a bunch of external behavioural indicators... and it seems incredibly offensive to me. It IS appropriation. And it IS silencing. Because some trans womens insistence that they are EXACTLY the same as women born with female genitalia changes what the definition of woman has meant... meaning all women have to accept that change to accomodate that.

I dont 'feel' like a woman... I AM a woman because of my genitalia... no other reason.. no thoughts in my head or likes and dislikes... woman is just a word that i can use to communicate with other women about what we are collectively going through and what we need due to our biology. That is why I identify as a woman... not because I know in my soul I'm a woman... in my soul I'm a human being. But I'm not non binary or some shite because that's not the experience I am living day to day due to my biology!!

I'm absolutely fine with people living however they want to love and calling themselves whatever they want... and I dont cisgender people out of respect. If someone wants to be referred to as a woman that is fine by me in an everyday setting.... but when what they define themselves as starts coming into conflict with my own definition of what I am I do not see why I should be the one to redefine my own existence?!? And I do think its misogyny... because it's always women who are asked to give way and to be nice... because women still dont matter and their identities still dont really exist to society... you can tell for a lot of people 'woman's is just an image or a concept rather than a living breathing, messy, human experience. Its fetishised.

quixote9 · 28/02/2019 19:42

Good grief. A sample size of 7 is going to give you no statistical significance at all. (Well, maybe in a very weird case that never happens, say, the ability to levitate, and in those 7 in happens twice. But that's not the situation in that study.)

How does this Harper person even have a Bachelor's, let alone a Masters?

GCBabySteps · 23/03/2019 16:51

I think I've finally made it - I've been blocked by the manly cyclist! I gave a little cheer! Grin Grin

OP posts:
Muststopfaffing · 03/07/2019 09:23

I’ve just commented on a professional FB group as openly gender critical. Another user asked advice about writing a letter for a patient who is waiting for GIDS appointment and was encouraged by someone else to do it- quoting percentages of people who detransition and essentially saying no one does before suggesting the OP contact their MP in favour of voting in self ID to make it easier for his patient. I’ve shared the detransitioners stuff from transgender trend and fair play for women about the changes to GRA. It’s the most open I’ve been, on a public site, with my actual name and in a professional discussion group! Feeling a bit nervous about the response I might get now!

R0wantrees · 03/07/2019 12:44

There aer a couple of BMJ articles worth having to hand, also being aware of RCGPs recent statements.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3410257-BMJ-article-We-need-research-to-explore-the-interplays-between-gender-identity-mental-health-and-neurodevelopmental-problems-sexual-orientation-autogynephilia-and-unpalatable-gender-roles

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3518188-BMJ-Prof-Carl-Heneghan-Evidence-Based-Medicine-Oxford-Panorama-Trans-Kids-Gender-affirming-hormone-in-children-and-adolescents-Evidence-review-concludes-There-are-significant-problems

& its important that professionals know there have been whistle blown Safeguarding & Duty of Care concerns re GIDS.
These are by professionals from within the service.
They are a matter of public record & whilst the inquiry has not yet happened, it will do.

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/governor-quits-blinkered-tavistock-clinic-82db7wzq8

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3509817-Times-16-2-1-9-Staff-at-trans-clinic-fear-damage-to-children

"The true histories of “highly disturbed or complex” child patients were not properly explored by Gids clinicians struggling with “huge and unmanageable caseloads” and afraid of being accused of transphobia if they questioned the “rehearsed” surface presentation. The report says the concerns voiced by staff are shared by Sonia Appleby, who is in charge of safeguarding at the trust."

FormerMediocreMale · 03/07/2019 13:11

Well done OP Flowers

FPFW link a great one especially regarding sport.

This re women's refuges is heartbreakingly powerful

fovas.wordpress.com/response-to-stonewall-2/

Sorry can't find square brackets on phone to hyperlink.

MsMcWibble · 03/07/2019 13:19

This is useful:

Baby steps in being publicly gender critical - help!
Manderleyagain · 03/07/2019 14:46

Muststopfaffing if the other commenter said hardly anyone detransitions you could point out that there are figures, I believe from the Tavistock clinic, showing that a high percentage desist of those that don't receive puberty blockers. A low percentage of those who do. It was discussed briefly on women's hour episode with a woman from Tavistock, and staphanie from trans g trend.

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