R4 PM to discuss transpeople in sport before 6

[MrsBodger]

Just announced at top of programme.

He did push her harder and talk over/through her.

You're right Humber. It was harder with Sarah because, as other posters have said, Davies spoke over her more.

I'm blocked by McKinnon but I bet they're spitting nails over having their points totally destroyed by Ditum.

I think not. In their bubble breaking their arms trying to pat themselves on the back at how brave and intelligent they are.

On twitter someone complained that RMK was misgendered in the interview... if so. I didn't hear that.

fleetsum they may mean Sarah saying that Rachel is male? I realise that’s not misgendering but she definitely didn’t say ‘he’ as far as I can tell so not sure what else it could mean.

Well done to Sarah. This sports issue really shines a light on the true motivations of the TRAs because it drives a coach and horses through the suggestion that they just wants trans people to be able to go about their day to day lives in peace. No; they want to do whatever validates their identity, no matter how much it affects women, and in doing so are making life much harder for the trans women who actually do want to just get on with their life in peace.

Can I ask a stupid question? With McKinnon talking about intersex and if Caster wins her case then what stops someone from then identifying as intersex but with a female identity (such as McKinnon) could they then bypass the testosterone requirements as equal with intersex women they identify as.

You can't identify as intersex.

No, I don’t think they could “identify” as intersex as that is a condition which can be diagnosed, not an identity.

Then again we are so far through the looking glass who knows?

I really wish Evan had said to Rachel: when you competed against men, you never won anything. Now you compete against women you win all the time. If there's really no difference, how do you explain that?

I normally like Evan. I think he was cowed by McKinnon - almost as if he was speaking to someone who was a typically aggressive, dominant male. (Which of course, he wasn't, if MN moderators are watching.)

Millytant: The testosterone range argument was the sort of thing that led Winston Churchill to say of a politician, "He uses statistics the way a drunk uses lamp-posts, for support rather than illumination...'

That is absolutely brilliant - I must remember that one.

I thought this was interesting (and thanks for the transcript):

RM: Pick any natural physical characteristic and boys can have it and girls can have it

This surely is the feminist argument AGAINST gendered brains - which is essential for the born in the wrong body

Without this inner womanly essence then, in what sense then is RK a 'woman'?

Or have I misunderstood and RK means characteristic like um .. curly hair and umm boobs , willies etc? Actually given the logic employed elsewhere that probably was the 'meaning'

Sarah Ditum was superb!

Did anyone carry on listening to the 6 o'clock news? There was a bit on about the Tavi and it was far more hard hitting than this morning's piece. I didn't catch all the details but it sounded like Panorama will be well worth a watch tonight.

On twitter someone complained that RMK was misgendered in the interview. was called ‘her’...

Which one of it was you?

I thought Evan was excellent. He asked good questions of McKinnon and then let RM get on with answering the question. Interrupting would have spoiled it. RM was so batshit letting RM witter on was the best.

I feel like Obi Wan. I feel a great disturbance in the Force. Like a million R4 listeners were peaktransed at once. By McKinnon. Sarah almost didn't need to be there.

Listening now. Why oh why does RM go on about intersex when RM is not, to my knowledge, intersex? Evan has specifically said intersex isn't the issue. I wish he had challenged RM more in this.

Smoke and mirrors, curious.

Intersex is all they have fact-wise. The condition exists (although not as common as they would like to think) and medically it is acknowledged.

Yes I felt he was trying too hard to be careful. But did say

'Is it transphobic to ask questions?' Which was a key point.

Yes Fekko and Neurotrash, you're right.

This reliance on the existence of DSDs to support the argument that TWAW is so commonplace and so misleading. I find it infuriating.

If a transwoman was saying 'I have a DSD and that is why I am trans', or even 'that is why I am a woman despite being "assigned" male at birth' then I could just about understand the argument.

But this is not what anyone ever says. They just say sex isnt binary blah intersex blah. There is no remotely decent argument there.

McKinnon comes across as someone who has heard lots of scientific words and is just strining them together in a sentence in the hopes they'll make some vague sort of sense.

Yes.

Word salad.

Smoke, mirrors.

Me. Only me.

I normally like Evan. I think he was cowed by McKinnon - almost as if he was speaking to someone who was a typically aggressive, dominant male. (Which of course, he wasn't, if MN moderators are watching.)

I’m not sure he was cowed. Did you see him discuss the GRA on newsnight with Benjamin from Pink News?

Sarah was superb. I think Evan D was just gobsmacked by what Rachel was coming out with and decided to let Rachel run with it. He asked the questions and it was easy to see the obfuscation i;the answers.

He pushed Sarah harder because she was talking sense and giving coherent answers. He was noticeably warmer with her than he was with McK, especially when thanking her for participating.

but in the intro evan went to great pains to say this is NOT about intersex, then let rmck ramble about intersex for ages.