R4 PM to discuss transpeople in sport before 6

[MrsBodger]

Just announced at top of programme.

No one ever mentions lung capacity.

The amount of oxygen the lungs can take in and out, obviously the bigger the better.

It's why asthma is treated.

From age 15, massive difference.

Programmes usually appear on the app to listen again 5-10 mins after they finish

Why do they give this numbskull so much air time?

I actually think the numbskull is doing a great job for female athletes.

Yes, more of Rachel please

Linky McLinkFace:

-while it's still on
www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/live:bbc_radio_fourfm

And for when it's over:

www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m0002rkg

No one ever mentions lung capacity.

Actually in fairness India Willoughby has a couple of times now when arguing Martina's point.

If I hadn't been paying attention to this debate, and was listening to PM this evening, and had half-tuned out during the drone of exogenous la la la, I think that last bit would have retuned my ears back to the debate.

Evan's (faux?) 'shock' at Sarah not recognising Rachel as female.

And Sarah stating what a lot of us here say again and again. "If Rachel wasn't male, Rachel wouldn't be trans." The clue's in the name! Good one Sarah!

(And yes, the 'you just don't like trans' argument. If I was Catholic and went on a radio programme to disagree that the basis of Buddhism was incorrect, I don't think someone would say 'come on, you just don't like Buddhists'. Why is this specific topic so different from others? Rhetorical question - message is, 'women, why won't you just be nice and move over?')

Oh Sarah, you .

Calm, clear and really pushed back at Evan Davis's "do you just not like trans?" nonsense.

Excellent. But so interesting that Evan's default position is that you must believe that TWAW. From a leading journalist who is meant to be critical and challenge and think about things.
Excellent rebuttals by Sarah Ditum. She speaks as well as she writes.

ED will say he was playing Devil's Advocate

(Which he wasn't doing with RMcK)

We need to know under what terms were agreed with "I'm A Lady!" so this interview could happen.

Actually in fairness India Willoughby has a couple of times now when arguing Martina's point.

Ha! I'm blocked on both accounts, including my professional non ranty one so I wouldn't know!

Compare the height of a tall woman with a short man so (similar height) and then compare lung capacity.

Yes, more of Rachel please - yes, I followed this on twitter and the story there is pretty much 95% "WTF!" and 5% "heresy should be silenced".

Worth asking the BBC if McKinnon just won't gone with anyone opposing her. The interviewer just let shim motor on with dubious facts.

That question about why segregate sport at all is the crucial one. Evan should have forced McKinnon to answer it.

Actually I do think Evan asked some very key questions that meant RMK had to answer in a certain way that showed the unfairness of it.

Maybe I'm too nice and hopeful but I honestly felt Evan was asking the questions as devils advocate to produce the right answers. The fact he spent ages on sex v gender, social v biology. Could have pushed more on sex segregation, definitely.

Sarah was brilliant- despite being very irritatingly talked over by Evan.
Calm, exactly to the point and pushed back on both the natal female point (no, we really don’t need to qualify the word female) and the silly ‘you just don’t like trans’ question.
Would Evan have asked Mck ‘you just don’t like women?’ Ridiculous.
Bloody well done Sarah!

Very rough transcript type during the interview. McKinnon actually sort of debated inasmuch as they were actually on the same programme.

McKinnon: important to recognise IOC do not make distinction between sex and gender in the US, Canada or the UK. They all use sex and gender interchangeably. My passport says female.

ED: Are they the same?

RM: Both social expectations and biology are socially constructed - gender and sex.

ED: Biology isn't socially constructed

RM: Pick any natural physical characteristic and boys can have it and girls can have it

ED: Why have separate sport then?

RM: Intersex conditions v prevalent (lists many). Only 2 sexes is a fiction

ED: Back to biology

RM: No. Chand, Semenya, there is no scientific evidence between natural testosterone and performance.

ED: Is it trans phobic to ask questions?

RM: No, but there are transphobic ways to ask questions. Ways in which Martina disagreeing are based on lies

No real improvement in performance afforded by endogenous testosterone. [gave long list of stats which i didn't catch] If you look at graph of values, 16.5% of male athletes are within female range.

Social reasons between separating lots of sports. Like shooting. We separate darts and shooting and there aren't any reasons to separate.

Ditum - Think that Rachel conceded that some aren't the same. But separating things like shooting and darts tellls us that women's sports chronically underfunded. There is a big difference in height, grip muscle mass between men and women. Male massive advantage.

ED: do you see cross over between trans and intersex ?

SD: Not the same. Right to disintegrate. McKinnon had all the advantages of being male growing up. Being disingenuous. Intersex needs to be dealt with sensitively and fairly.

ED: McKinnon making points about testosterone - endogenous and exogenous. I don't know much about the science so not sure if that's true.

SD: Immediate level don't make any difference but flood at puberty does. Quibbling doesn't address main issues. When you're talking about full contact sports there are issues with people like Fallon Fox. Serious safety concerns.

I'm happy with trans taking part in women's sport like shooting.

ED: Don't you just dislike the idea of trans?

SD: No, women's sport is being put under this pressure. Female athletes lose funding. If McKinnon went a male athlete, she wouldn't be trans. We're supposed to believe it doesn't matter.

Can't wait to listen when it's available

Sarah spoke really well, fluent and coherent.
Very clear on the physical advantages that male puberty delivers.

I agree that it was far more insightful than I expected. And yes Evan did push McKinnon but McKinnon just ignored and diverted and ignored.
Shame Evan didn't ask McKinnon 'do you just not like women? (having asked Sarah - 'do you just not like trans?' )

It’s true! DH was on the radiobox (R4) and for paid for his wise words.

That’s maybe because you’re DH is a male Feko?

DH and a female “colleague”are asked to speak on the media as a pair. DH gets paid, she doesn’t...

He agrees a fee. She assumes it’s done for love.

I dunno - they might not have known when they booked him (not obvious by the name and it was a loooong time ago).

That’s a good overview Orchid, just one point though re the shooting example. When ED asked SD if she would accept TW competing in those competitions as Women, she did push back I think. Her point being that if sports were sex segregated then why should the women be expected to concede on any grounds to males, in any event?
Might have to listen again to this bit.

I thought Evan was fairly even handed. Or maybe it seems that way because Sarah just demolished McKinnon’s arguments. So far a pretty good day. Fingers crossed for Panorama tonight!