Panorama 25 Feb 20.30hrs: Trans Kids: Why Medicine Matters **Thread title edited by MNHQ**

[TimeLady]

"More young people than ever are exploring their gender identity. Last year, two and a half thousand under-eighteens were referred to NHS England's gender identity clinics for support. Some are hoping to get access to potentially irreversible treatments as soon as they can. Doctors are divided about the best way to help."

"Dr Faye Kirkland investigates how much we understand about the care being offered to transgender children."

recognition that the best outcome for these children is acceptance of their body and no pharmaceutical or surgical measures. But as I understand it that position is regarded as unacceptably transphobic.

This. This is what we are up against. Anything other than full throttle celebration of children in their new rainbow identity, with medication and hormones to boot, is seen as transphobia. Any research, waiting and watching or questions about whether it’s right for the individual child is seen as denying their very existence.

There are no trans children. Those with body dysmorphia of any kind should recieve as much help and support as we can, just as to any other distressed child. Support that we know (eg parents of asd children) is woefully thin on the ground.

Thus treatment involves use of drugs for a purpose for which they were not devised or licensed, against the guidelines for their usage, where long term risks are unknown.

I can't get my head round why this is allowed. I just can't. Surely it flouts not just the basic ethical system that doctors are supposed to adhere to but actual regulations governing the prescription of pharmaceutical drugs? Doesn't it?

I just need to point out that the bbc directed people for help and support ti their action line website.

This is the page under "gender:"

www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/articles/5zvRZW3yRHjqczdwd0gv3S0/information-and-support-gender-identity

So basically the problematic organisations featured in the actual programme.
What a surprise.

Thus treatment involves use of drugs for a purpose for which they were not devised or licensed, against the guidelines for their usage, where long term risks are unknown.

In a group of people who have co-morbid mental health issues. I'm astonished that any medical professionals can't see the problem with this.

Trans activists however do not accept GID is a mental health issue.

But they also say that people who suffer from it are at high risk of suicide. Since it doesn't cause physical pain, why would this be?

I just need to point out that the bbc directed people for help and support ti their action line website.

Interestingly, if you click on the link for this programme from the action line page, it goes here:

www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/articles/4NQMWvzN3jlHGfHcVT8Pd1n/information-and-support-trans-kids-why-medicine-matters

It has links to the NHS and to the BBC support pages on emotional distress and self harm. But not to the one on gender identity. Are they starting to see the problems with Mermaids, GIRES and the rest of them?

Solo - the issue I see is that it’s not possible to tell from talking to Jade if her dysphoria has always been there or if she was simply a gender non-conforming boy. Her first inkling was when she was upset she couldn’t be an angel. The anger she felt at the injustice has been looked back at and and reclassified as dysphoria from a young age.

DD was the same - she was very gender non-conforming. In nursery she was obsessed with Dr Who. The boys wouldn’t let her play because she was a girl and Dr Who was a boys thing. It caused lots of upset for her, she was rejected by the girls for liking ‘boy stuff’ and rejected by the boys for knowing more about ‘boy stuff’ than them. When she got to the ROGD period of introspection, every injustice of gender stereotypes became evidence of being in the wrong body.

I thought the program was very balanced. I’m glad clinicians are finally beginning to officially state that there is no evidence for treatment pathways. As for Webberly... can’t believe she called the scientist a sheep farmer! It’s like saying ‘why did they interview her, she’s just a drug dealer.’

The parents of trans children on Twitter are so blinkered. As said above, ASD waiting lists are over 18 weeks. We’ve been fighting for assessment for over 4 years, luckily we affirm DD’s ASD and treat her as autistic, however, some people don’t believe you’re autistic if you say you are, even if you present as autistic in every way - fucking bigots.

But they also say that people who suffer from it are at high risk of suicide. Since it doesn't cause physical pain, why would this be?

This is what I don't get.

The narrative is that being trans is not a mental illness - this is to fit in with the whole gay comparison thing.

But alongside this is the conetant message that trans kids are suicidal and if we don't let teenagers make irreversible changes to their bodies, then they will kill themselves in huge numbers.

So being trans isn't a mental illness but a child who is not allowed to cut off their healthy body parts and drugs that will render them infertile will be suicidal.

Riiiiiiigggghhhhtttt......

This is one of the many areas in which its so obvious that the T has been tacked onto LGB simply in order to gain traction. They are in no way the same.

I remember having a discussion on a thread on here about the 'mental illness' thing and they started going down some 'well it's not a mental illness it's a mental condition, they are not the same thing' road that was just a total dead end.

I think Jade may have said she had therapy to deal with a number of issues, alongside dysphoria. The GP narrator said Jade had suffered a traumatic childhood. I suspect this young person may have had a very difficult start in life, as was alluded to, and they have suffered in a number of ways as a result.
So many children who present as trans seem to have trauma somewhere in their early years.

There are no trans children. Those with body dysmorphia of any kind should recieve as much help and support as we can, just as to any other distressed child.
See this goes with this:
This is one of the many areas in which its so obvious that the T has been tacked onto LGB simply in order to gain traction. They are in no way the same.

Because we don't refer to children by their sexuality, because they're children and should be enjoying life without the pressures of sex and sexuality - and children sexualised early or who have been abused have other issues as a result.
So if T goes with LGB, and we can be happy to state that a child might grow up gay (they could be gender non conforming) and happy to wait and see what the child chooses for himself or herself, why can't we identify a child who might grow up trans (again likely to be gender non conforming) and wait and see with them too?
Particularly as the behaviour is the same in both cases?

On a darker note, where were all the suicides before trans issues were in the spotlight? Lesbian and gay youths have a higher than average suicide rate but this is closely linked to being rejected by family. If the increase in children in transition is entirely due to people having better awareness and not social contagion, that would suggest there were always the same percentage of children who were trans. What happened to them in the past? Were they 2% of all children (the 2% figure is rubbish but TRAs are using it). And therefore were 40% of that 2% suicidal?
I think we'd have heard of it if one child in every 120 was suicidal or committed suicide due to being trans. Those are huge numbers. Four or five in an average secondary school.
It's just nonsense.

Someone has fact checked the programme (I haven't looked into it to know whether how accurate it is)

twitter.com/DadTrans/status/1100135291258658816

This article about comorbid mental health conditions has a very enlightening interaction in the comments - a TRA tries to discredit by chatting shit, and the author refutes the shit point by point.

Accusations of cissexism and transphobia are made.

digest.bps.org.uk/2018/01/17/most-children-and-teens-with-gender-dysphoria-also-have-multiple-other-psychological-issues/

Ewe that ‘fact check’mTwitter thread was written before the programme even ended, so I doubt it’s accuracy!

FlyingOink

I was thinking just that thing whilst watching the programme last night. If, as is claimed, the reason more kids are coming out as trans is because its more 'acceptable' these days (same as being gay) then where on earth were all these closeted trans kids say, 30 years ago, and how come absolutely tonnes of kids weren't killing themselves because they couldn't be 'their authentic' self. How come there wasn't an 'epidemic' of children killing themselves that no one could figure out, but now it's all become clear? It's so obviously social contagion.

There are so many huge gaping holes in this whole ideology.

That DadTrans person doesn't seem to have any concept of the ethics around allowing or pushing 12/13/14 year olds to go on national telly and talk about their psychological issues and the medication they might be offered.

Maybe Panorama just has a bit more of a moral compass than the TLC Channel.

Someone has fact checked the programme (I haven't looked into it to know whether how accurate it is)

DadTrans and FierceMum are prominant and active TRAs.
They have been at the forefront of defending Mermaids and Gender GP whilst criticising Tavistock GIDS.

See growinguptransgender.com/2019/02/13/offensive-dated-harmful-2019-research-from-gids/

I think the most striking thing for me about the programme was that Carmichael seemed reasonable in the face of pressure.
I don't think Carmichael is reasonable. But on the programme she seems reasonable by comparison.
I think if you hadn't been involved in the discussion prior to this, Panorama covered most of the bases. In a very calm and unthreatening way.
But the following were covered: struck off GPs. Testosterone for 12 year olds. Evidence of brain changes due to gnRH agonists. Admission that clinicians had resigned. Admission that doctors don't want to get involved. Admission that the Tavistock is under pressure from activists. Admission the number of children involved is soaring. Discussion of why that might be. Quotes from doctors stating the treatment path doesn't actually work. The single individual featured had other issues, a difficult life and seemed to be dealing well with the wait. (So not a perfect advertisement for a: drugs now or I'll kill myself or b: now I've transitioned all my problems are gone) In fact as other posters have commented, Jade seemed a likeable and sympathetic character, who needs support and care.
Webberley is an idiot for drawing attention to the "sheep farmer", as that section contained the biggest bombshell in the whole programme. It's the first time mental development being affected by gnRH agonists has been discussed on telly, AFAIK.

That's not fact checking it's just ignorant whining about how scientific research works.

Why do live animal testing before humans?
Why follow proper research protocol?
Why not ask misguided children instead of professional adults?

mkay?

Can any parent seriously imagine going to the dr with child and being offered a course of treatment which may or may not improve illness, we have no idea which, hasn't been tested for use, on animals or humans, no research available for analysis of effect or long term outcome oh and yup has been known to kill over time and looks like it will likely impair brain development. How many would say "oh thanks very much" and pop round the chemist to pick up that script?

Why not ask misguided children instead of professional adults?

I would like to ask 'TransDad' the questions: how come we don't allow children under 18 to vote or get a tattoo? How come we don't allow children under 16 to get married or have sex or play the lottery? How come we dont let primary age kids run the country? (actually don't answer that one!!!)

Someone I know who's child is being treated for leukaemia pointed out this would never happen in the field of cancer research for the treatment of children.

Look at how hard it was for the parents of the child who had proton beam therapy? Granted that's now being allowed but that was extremely strict.

She also pointed out that treatment and relapse can be different between the sexes.

Exactly, other treatments have to be backed up by extensive evidence of benefits vs health risks/harm. Compare the maverick use of off label drugs to the case of the mother who was arrested for giving her son cannabis oil for epilepsy.

I'd read it on here often enough but it was still staggering to see Polly Carmichael openly admit they'd been prescribing drugs to children without researching the long term effects. On national tv. I thought Carmichael looked like a rabbit in headlights.

I couldn't believe they used Helen Webberley but then again it goes to show the lack of respected, credible clinicians who are pro medication.

I was also surprised not to see Susie Green - I know Mermaids had a namecheck at the end but they'd have been all over this programme a year ago. That's how far we've come I think.

Jade made me cry.