Panorama 25 Feb 20.30hrs: Trans Kids: Why Medicine Matters **Thread title edited by MNHQ**

[TimeLady]

"More young people than ever are exploring their gender identity. Last year, two and a half thousand under-eighteens were referred to NHS England's gender identity clinics for support. Some are hoping to get access to potentially irreversible treatments as soon as they can. Doctors are divided about the best way to help."

"Dr Faye Kirkland investigates how much we understand about the care being offered to transgender children."

Excellent critical video from the 90s about multiple personality disorder

a more recent video created by a youtube "influencer" promoting the idea of DID as an actual psychiatric condition rather than an iatrogenic condition

It is important to notice the gender issue re the "alters", also the role of "influencers" in terms of the social contagion aspect, as indicated by the messages and posts below the video on youtube.

There are loads of videos like this, mostly from young females, and the similarities with the trans influencer videos are very obvious.

Ewe - I only have experience of a couple of those drugs being prescribed to DD. Both had to be prescribed by a psychiatrist and regular monthly checks needed to ensure no physical damage was being done. Anti-depressants can't be prescribed to those under 17 year old by GP.- well that's what our GP said! Also as DD is under 18 they will only prescribe a months worth of tablets at a time to ensure she gets checked before a repeat prescription is issued.

There might be some cases of DID due to social contagion or medical interference, but this is not the case for me - never met anybody else with DID, only read about others online way past the point where I had recognised I was losing time and switching IDs. Didn't have therapists who ever suggested it. The only way I could ever integrate trauma has been to work with these disowned parts of myself. You really have no idea about DID if you think it's all contagion/medically induced. The problem is not people having identities, trans or otherwise, it's confusing identity with material reality. Tavi might have a shady history, but DID is something I live with every day and is a trauma response. As I believe trans identities are (i.e. a trauma response to a gendered world).

A research article, more recent than the 90s, about DID, if you are genuinely interested: www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4959824/

A research article, more recent than the 90s, about DID, if you are genuinely interested: www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4959824/

Thanks for that link

it leads to a 2016 article

Separating Fact from Fiction: An Empirical Examination of Six Myths About Dissociative Identity Disorder

The authors are listed as follows:

Bethany L. Brand, PhD, Vedat Sar, MD, Pam Stavropoulos, PhD, Christa Krüger, MB BCh, MMed (Psych), MD, Marilyn Korzekwa, MD, Alfonso Martínez-Taboas, PhD, and Warwick Middleton, MB BS, FRANZCP, MD

I just wondered whether you were aware that all of the authors in the paper you recommend are deeply involved in a widely derided centre for quackery and psychiatric malpractice called the International Society for the Study and Treatment of Trauma and Dissociation (ISSTD)?

This highly abusive organisation has been hurting and exploiting vulnerable people for decades.

Amazingly, even though they have been exposed multiple times over the years and their various members have been disgraced and subjected to disciplinary actions, they are still at it and are still recommended as authorities on MPD/DID/complex trauma by naive people, as your post clearly demonstrates.

If you are really interested in the subject you may wish to check out this excellent albeit now rather old documentary all about the work of the ISSTD

You're clearly a discompassionate person who is ignoring the fact that I have DID and know what that is better than you do because I literally live with it... I have never been in contact with this centre.

There are hundreds of studies on DID from all over the world. It is documented under different names across time and place. In some cultures they call it possession in western societies it is usually pathologised. Just because you and clearly the makers of that video think that one centre has been engaged in malpractice does not mean that DID is created by medical professionals.

I will watch that video some other time since today is a difficult day for me (anniversary of loss) and I haven't the emotional energy for it. Maybe get your head out your arse in the meantime.

Anyone know if these drugs have been tested for safe use in children?

She’s deliberately missing the point. The point is not that solely testing a drug in adults means you can’t hive a child a drug. The point is that the adverse events and safety profiles of these drugs in adults shows they should NEVER be given to healthy children.
Iots of drugs are used off label. There is a massive difference between using something that has a long history of safe use in adults on a child, and something that has a short history of use, tens of thousands of adverse event reports and a side effect profile that’s catastrophic for a developing body on a child.

As a reminder: puberty lays down half your bone density. Blockers prevent physical AND mental maturation. They lead to an 8 point on average IQ drop. They affect bones, joints, fat metabolism, several metabolic systems, and they can lead to irrevocable changes in fertility depending on timing of usage.

they are also contraindicated for prescription in anyone with a coexisting mental health condition.

Another reminder. As well as her current clinic being unlicensed, Webberley has had other clinics closed down, which were earning her hundreds of thousands of quid a year and had very dodgy prescribing practices (including prescriptions being given out in ad little as 17 seconds.)

Webberley is not a doctor ANY reputable organisation should be hitching their wagon to.

@RedRose90

You have absolutely no idea of my personal and / or professional relationship to the MPD/DID/complex trauma issue.

As I would like to avoid the bullying and doxxing for as long as I possibly can I am not going to provide too much information here, however I have been diagnosed with complex trauma, the new brand for MPD/DID by a quack who does work with the ISSTD.

I have very significant 1st hand experience of the damage these quacks and deluded psychopaths do to vulnerable people.

I could suggest that we are both in the same boat as we both have the same diagnosis, however there are differences between us.

I believe that the condition that I have been diagnosed with is an iatrogenic condition, you do not share this belief.

I have actually been diagnosed by a psychiatrist (albeit a quack). I have the documentation to prove it. You apparently have not. Or have you?

I have had significant contact with many vulnerable people who have been diagnosed with MPD/DID/complex trauma after being treated by quacks and / or after self diagnosing by watching videos / films and reading books such as Sybil, the Three Faces of Eve.

I am not saying that I know the subject inside out, there is always more to learn about any subject of course, but i am extremely knowledgable about this issue.

I know the subject both from conducting rigorous research via the literature, including reading many books by quacks promoting MDP/DID/complex trauma, also from thousands of hours of research of open sources and from significant personal and professional experience.

We may not agree on everything but I would be really extremely interested to learn more about why you believe you have DID if you have never watched any films about the issue, never read any books about the issue, have not been diagnosed by a mental health professional etc.

I am also extremely curious as to how you came to recommend an academic paper authored by a group of dubious persons linked to a notorious centre for quackery in order to support your position.

I apologise if I came across as insensitive, I do not wish to hurt anyone's feelings, especially anyone who is vulnerable. My battle is not with vulnerable people but with those in positions of power who abuse and exploit them.

Whether it is people who believe they have MPD/DID/complex trauma or vulnerable young people with learning disabilities / mental health issues who believe they are trans (another area in which I have significant personal experience) my intention and motivation is to protect them from being abused by people in positions of authority.

When you feel sufficiently emotionally resilient I would genuinely be extremely interested to know why you believe you have DID.

I would also invite you to post as many links as you like to academic papers you feel endorse your position.

I am always interested in learning more about this subject and if there are authorities in the field who have escaped my interest I would love to know about them.

also
@RedRosa90

You state that you have never been in contact with the ISSTD

This may be true. I think it is possible that you have had contact with people involved with the ISSTD and simply not know it.

I have had been on the receiving end of treatment from various quacks associated with the ISSTD. None of these people were upfront about their association and in one case, actually took steps to hide their association from me.

The ISSTD has been at the centre of multiple law suits and professional malpractice suits. It has been exposed multiple times over the decades it has been operating.

For this reason the people associated with it tend not to boast of their association.

I had been diagnosed with complex trauma for years before I realised that this was the new brand for MPD/DID. I also had not idea that the psychiatrist who initially diagnosed me was involved with the ISSTD.

Great post from Bowl (as usual) about medical ethics and inappropriate use of drugs on children.

Yesterday on Radio 4 pm (about 47 mins in) there was a piece about paediatricians who are campaigning to stop UK recruiting 16yr olds into the armed forces.
Direct quote from a senior paediatrician "you are asking them to make a decision about the rest of their lives when their brains are not fully developed".
I was struck by the irony and the contrast with regard to informed consent for puberty blockers and subsequent treatments.

My battle is not with vulnerable people but with those in positions of power who abuse and exploit them.

Hear hear. Could not agree more.

Optimist great point.

Rosa Wishing you well today.
FWIW, I haven’t got my own experience of taking on other identities nor any professional experience of caring for people affected by this, but intuitively it makes perfect sense to me what you said:

I believe trans identities are.... a trauma response to a gendered world

I think you make a really important point.
Society in general won’t or can’t see the massive toxicity of gender (amongst other forms of hate) and how fucked up it makes absolutely everything it touches. It shapes all of our lives so deeply. It’s the elephant pretty much always in the room.

In my own experience at times in my life I have hated my perfectly healthy body and face and wanted to hide them away (as in never leave the house) because of the constant sexual harassment by men and the constant criticism and comment from men and women- all just par for the course stuff, the usual shit doled out because I am female.

I can completely see how some girls and young women might see ‘becoming a man’ as an escape from dealing with that shit every day (and of course, in reaction to many worse experiences that can be forced on their female body)

It’s only human to want to reject the massive burdens and limitations that gender forces on us. I can absolutely see that taking on a new identity as a transman might feel like sticking two fingers up at it all. And the same for some boys if they feel stifled by expectations that they should adopt and internalise the narrow and emotionally fucked up masculine gender role.

(So given all of that I feel particularly offended by AGP hopping on this ‘trans’ bandwagon, because from everything I have read about it I feel it is fetishising girls’ and women’s sexual objectification - fetishising our sexual harassment by men and catcalling as experienced by the AGP person as a validation of womanhood. For the appropriation and fetishisation of women’s oppression and trauma to be glorified as brave and stunning, is horrible and baffling to me.)

I just wish the gender hierarchy would fuck off and leave our kids alone.

I believe trans identities are.... a trauma response to a gendered world

I think you make a really important point.
Society in general won’t or can’t see the massive toxicity of gender (amongst other forms of hate) and how fucked up it makes absolutely everything it touches. It shapes all of our lives so deeply. It’s the elephant pretty much always in the room.

cf Sheila Jeffries speech at the first 'We Need To Talk' meeting after Maria Machlaclan was assaulted by males at Speakers' Corner.

Sheila Jeffries describes transgenderism as part of men's sexual rights movement which includes pornography and prostitution. Sheila Jeffires also describes how she believes the use of children and young people is deliberate to obscure this.

'What is Gender?'

I heard that interview too Iused2beanoptimist. When Evan Davies gave the example of a friend from school who had joined the army at 16 very successfully, the paediatrician said something like, ‘I am very happy for your friend that it worked out for him’ but that doesn’t mean we should allow this happen. Thanks bowlofbalelfish for that information about puberty blockers. Those changes don’t seem very reversible to me. Also, I thought average ages of puberty were coming down. What would happen in the case of nine year old girls? It’s unusual but not exceptional for them to reach puberty then. I did and so did a couple of other girls in my class. I hated it and felt so self conscious. Luckily there was nobody to suggest I was really a boy.

Olly Lambert's twitter response to Graham Linehan's request 'I'd like to collect some anecdotes about when and why you first became involved in the debate about gender ideology/activism'

(OL was the Director of 'Trans Kids, Its Time to Talk' documentary)

"It was probably the moment I realised that not a single charity, journalist, support group or doctor who supported the affirmation of trans kids would take part in a documentary that wanted to ask valid questions about the treatment of …trans kids. THREAD 1/13

At the start of this, I’d undoubtedly have called myself an ally, and still do in a different way. Live and let live, give people the lives and freedoms they want, let kids live their true lives. /2

The film “Trans Kids: It’s Time to Talk” sought to ask if if the medication and affirmation of trans kids was always the right path. I’d expected passionate and articulate charities & campaign groups would want to take part and speak about how this process helps. /3

And yet in almost 20 years of making films, I’d never encountered such a systematic refusal to debate something so patently important. Every single "pro trans kids" group refused to speak, and I had to ask why. /4

Stonewall refused, saying that as the film included “gender critical” voices it would be ‘denying the existence of trans people’. This was laughable. Interviews with trans people make up nearly half the film. /5

Britain’s only private “gender GP” Helen Webberley said she’d take part on condition that Stephanie Davies-Arai and @David @DavidTCDavies were not included. Amazed, we asked if there were others she didn’t want us to talk to. She said she’d need to check the “little list” /6

Maria Miller MP didn’t have even ten minutes free in the following 3 months (!) to be interviewed about the Women’s & Equalities Select Committee (which she chairs), adding that she was no longer involved in the trans debate. (But… /7

...On the day Maria Miller wrote this to me, Stonewall sent an invitation to MPs inviting them to a “panel event on trans equality, held in partnership with Maria Miller MP…”) /8

Paris Lees pulled out of two meetings, both times on the day they were supposed to happen, before saying she didn’t have time to take part. /9

Mermaids had various reasons, falsely stating that the author & psychotherapist presenter @stellaomalley3 was “unqualified” and “confused”. They also wouldn’t take part because “the film will be one sided” (their refusal to take part only serving to make that more likely). /10

Lily Madigan refused because there was “nothing to debate”. /11

Jake Graf wouldn’t even speak on the phone. Owen Jones ignored all emails and requests via an intermediary. Jane Fae said no. Gendered Intelligence never replied to emails. And on and on. /12

The only organisation who I felt gave a valid reason was the Tavistock. After a long meeting with Polly Carmichael (who was thoughtful, nuanced and recognised the complexity) they ultimately declined saying they feared their words would be “weaponised” by all sides. /13

So my question remains: if a treatment is so right, if your position is so unarguably good, why not talk about it? Feeling that you’re so correct you can’t be disagreed with is a really, really bad look. /14

Anyway. We made the film. You can see it here:
vimeo.com/304866757 "

threader.app/thread/1100693458048770048

current thread collating responses to the same question from Mumsnet members:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3518546-help-a-brother-out

Thank you R0wan for the link I will watch that.

Thanks due to Olly Lambert!

X post!- thanks for all those links too.

I should make clear that Olly Lambert directed the Channel 4 documentary about children identifying as transgender not Panorama.

I do think it is relevent to the discussion on this thread but my posting here was an accident!
discussion:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3430608-Stella-OMalley-Trans-Kids-Its-Time-To-Talk

Wow, that Olly Lambert thread is very revealing. It's almost as if TRAs know they haven't got a leg to stand on.

Yes. If you care passionately about something why wouldn’t you advocate for it on a mainstream media show?

Apart from Jennifer James turning down an interview with the Mail, have any GC feminists turned down requests to talk about trans issues in the media?

For those who represent charities, publically funded organisations or hold political office its a serious failure of Duty of Care and responsibilities of position requiring serious scrutiny.

This concerns the care and welfare of children and vulnerable adults

There are systemic Safeguarding and Child Protection failures with policies created/influenced by trans activists & lobby groups.

Maria Miller MP's actions have to be scrutinised.

2017 Maria Miller dismissed women's concerns and brushed aside Janice Turner Times journalist's questions:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/2993425-Maria-Miller-interviewed-by-Janice-Turner-full-text

Maria Miller MP headed a seriously flawed APPG Women & Equalities response and enquiry which has had serious implications for Safeguarding children and vulnerable adults and undermining Women's Rights. Failings of the enquiry analysed and described by Professor Kathleen Stock in her WPUK at House of Lords' speech:
medium.com/@kathleenstock/womens-place-talk-full-text-house-of-lords-oct-10th-2018-b1f3d70c4559

thread:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3391330-Prof-Kathleen-Stock-WPUK-speech-at-House-of-Lords-Important-disection-of-the-key-issues-for-MPs-policy-makers-etc-with-ref-to-The-Trans-Equality-Report