So what if trans women take over women’s sport?

[nellieellie]

Don’t know if this has already been copied but apparently if trans women did win all the trophies it would be a good thing.

www.independent.co.uk/sport/general/athletics/caster-semenya-news-gender-martina-navratilova-trans-cas-jonathan-liew-column-a8792861.html#

Day by day, the men attack women's rights and 'normalise' the saying of what was previously unsayable. "Science" apparently "proves" their ludicrous assertions that TWAW "biologically".

Drip, drip, drip...

"Most men can’t even remember when to put the bins out."

Ah the classic

Men go mad when women make sexist comments like this
But when they want to do it to prop their own arguments, it's fine.

I like "I have a lot of time for Navratilova" who does he think he is? In fact, I've never heard of him before in my life. Big of him to say he thinks Martina is, OKish, though.

Echoes of RM there. Dont' you know who I am???

CottonBlanket

I'm with you. It's partly the ignorance of these people. And partly the arrogance.

Not everyone knows the details of what the KKK did, but I'm sure most people understand that it was horrific.

Likewise the Nazis.

Likewise any other fucking thing with which they keep comparing disagreeing women.

There was a story when trolling as an art form was first rearing its ugly head, quite a few years ago. One woman was banging on about something, it might have been Madeline McCann, I can't remember, and it was pretty horrific, what she was saying.

Turns out she is a normal, middle-class mother living in the Cotswolds, tending to her garden.

The disconnect between her online vitriol, and her real life persona was shocking.

She clearly did not have the imagination (or maybe it's the humanity), to understand the effects of her words.

I believe the entire story ended tragically, as she was eventually overcome by remorse (or shame.)

Internet trolling seems to produce people who have some kind of immunity to what they are actually saying.

And I agree, it needs calling out, every single time. Decent people need to stand up.

What an idiot.
Surely there needs to be a firm line drawn here, if sport is so important to an individual then they have to delay transition and compete in the male categories, or they are told they can no longer compete. They can't have it both ways, it is utterly unfair to women if this is not the conclusion.

IDoN0tCare
Brilliant and also acceptable as it doesn’t have any of those mouthy women on it distracting everyone with their irrelevant whining. Win-win.

The Independent used to be a serious and reputable newspaper. Now it's a website.

I have a lot of time for Navratilova

Funny, she never mentions you.

Got to the end

So he's cool with destroying womens sport entirely and removing all role models for girls (cunty) in order to improve things for a tiny % of young trans people > and note they would only be role models in one direction, as there would never be any possibility whatsoever of transmen dominating mens sports.

So all the cunty people all over the world including trans cunty people would be reminded that people with dicks must always take precedence, be visible, be privileged, win all the prizes and accolades and so on.

Well that sounds marvellous.

The "men can't even remember when to take the bins out" line is in a sense the nub of the matter - this man actually believes sexist stereotypes are hard wired, are the state of nature, and if that happens to favour him (as the man in the relationship who never has to do the fucking grunt work of taking the bin out before it starts to stink out the whole house), well it's just genetic luck that he got that coveted Y chromosome in life's lottery.

So of course (because he thinks the stererotypes are actually part of the fabric of nature) he's low-hanging fruit for the transcult to assimilate - because they're only telling him what he already believes: that being a woman is merely being frilly and feminine and submissive (and remembering to take the bins out), that women are only there for his entertainment and not actually human, because they, poor plastic barbies, lost life's lottery, but huh, that's just how things are.

This bloke presumably also agrees with the idea of parliament being 1/2 men 1/2 transwomen being awesome and a triumph for equality.

He also ticks several other boxes

Conflation of intersex and trans
Thinking it's a winning argument to say that because some people are taller than others, men should be allowed to compete against women
Saying that transition is a big old hooha (needn't be really, you don't need to do anything really these days)
Saying no-one would exploit this to win at sports HELLLOOOOOOO remember the women dosed with testosterone back in the day? All the doping of other sorts that goes on? That countries take children with potential at young ages and essentially control them? Of course it will be exploited

That countries take children with potential at young ages and essentially control them?

Really good point. What's to stop Russia, China or even America fielding male athletes in women's sports because they want a win? Once they start, others will feel they have to follow.

The Chinese will do this. As will newly assertive India, the worst-performing Olympic nation on Earth per capita.

'Learning Difficulties' categories in the Paralympics and Special Olympics are under constant attack by fully cogniscient ringers.

The world record holder of the decathlon - which can only be entered by men, is actually a woman!

Was it a woman pretending to be a man though?

I'm a utterly disgusted that someone got paid for this hatred. Is fucking salaried.

Daley Thompson beat 'Bruce' Jenner's record in 1980. The current record holder is a French bloke.

What's to stop Russia, China or even America fielding male athletes in women's sports because they want a win?

As an example of how important a win is and the mentality behind it, Japan's Olympics Minister recently made this statement:

"She is a potential gold medalist, an athlete of whom we have great expectations. I'm really disappointed,"

Can you guess what he was 'disappointed' about? No, not that she'll be beaten by a transwoman - that she has been diagnosed with leukaemia. So he's disappointed that he won't get that gold medal for Japan.

With that attitude, it's not hard to see that people will make use of any advantage they can to get medals.

Fantastic comments, arguments here on MN -- they should be posted on the article itself though; we all agree here! These arguments need to be seen by the public.

These men should be the change that they want to see.

So they should all give up their jobs in favour of women who identify as men. There must be hundreds of women who identify as men who could write crappy articles like that. Owen Jones could give up his gig at The Guardian in favour of a woman who identifies as a man.

It would be so inspiring to see these men give up their privilege and status and financial remuneration for their trans siblings, rather than writing that women should be the ones to give up these things for men.

Imagine the power of a transgender person seeing a journalist on a national newspaper stand aside in favour of a transgender person. In a way, it would be inspiring.

Can't wait to see it.

Millytant

WTAF?

Daley Thompson beat Katlyn Jenner's record?
What was he doing competing against a woman?
Why is he allowed to suppress her amazing achievement?
I always thought he was a good bloke but it turns out he's just a terrible cheat

Popchyk

I could identify as someone who knows about sport, so am up for this job.

@Lamaha you should click on the Twitter comments responding to his piece. At least 98% agree with us. Mind you, with regards to the public seeing them, barely anyone reads The Independent these days.

I am incensed. 'Sport is only sports said no sports journalist ever. Except when explain to women why they should just pipe down and let men take their things.

It's so easy for these men to give away women's rights.

It's not even like women's sport gets anything like the resources that men's sport gets. But nope. We shouldn't even try to organise and defend what little we have.

And while this debate rages, where are the male sports personalities?

Linekar, Murray, Wiggins SPEAK OUT.

All that is necessary for generations of girls and women to lose out is for GOOD MEN to do NOTHING.

I believe the entire story ended tragically, as she was eventually overcome by remorse (or shame.)

I remember this. The woman was, I think, sending horrible messages to the McCanns. She was exposed by Sky News, and then killed herself.

This Jonathan Liew is a classic example of a mediocre man promoted beyond his abilities, isn't he?

What bothers me with all of this

Is that we might well "win", or more or less win the sports thing

But then it will be seen as enough ground having been ceded and a massive generous compromise and so we don't get to "win" anything else (prisons, toilets, changing facilities, sleeping arrangements for kids on trips, hospital wards, secure psychiatric units, refuges etc etc)