Caster Semenya

[LilaJude]

Is anyone else outraged that sports bodies are suggesting forcing Caster Semenyer to take medication to reduce her testosterone levels?

Caster has a naturally occurring phenomenon which gives her more testosterone than the average woman, and this has been deemed a competitive advantage that needs to be medically regulated.

How is this fair? We don’t handicap other athletes for having longer legs or more muscle mass. The nature of sport is that people with exceptional bodies triumph.

It’s like these sports governing bodies are saying ‘testosterone is a man thing, women aren’t allowed it.’ But Caster does have it, naturally, and it’s just part of who she is.

I just think it’s outrageous to force a woman to medicate just because a naturally occurring condition means her body doesn’t fit with what is conventionally seen as feminine / female.

@bluebluezoo CS has been told to reduce testosterone to below 10nmol at one stage and to below 5nmol at another. We can fairly deduce that their levels were above 10nmol which is over 5 times the maximum range in healthy women.

And the case conclusion hinged on 46XY with testosterone above 5nmol. .. it is on those published details that the discussion hinges, biology not legal gender or gender identity.

JessicaWakefieldSV

"No, the ruling includes the condition, it’s also been available for 10 years."

Yes, but why are so many people (even a few on here) ignoring this fact? It was made obvious from the CAS summary report, where various DSD'a were mentioned, and the one which CS is being made to cply with (If they wish to keep on competing) is the 46 XY DSD, which plainly states that CS has male Chromozomes, and thus will have gone through a male puberty, which in itself will have led to stronger bones, increased muscle mass, larger heart and lungs, that is the science.
Now to the visual impact, which was obvious to all ten years ago - the muscles in the upper body - neck, shoulders, biceps, V shaped torso, thicker waist. Lower body - narrower hips/pelvis, larger quads and calves. The running style is like no other woman's.
I would like to repeat, that CS and ANY other athletes with these physiological advantages must NEVER be allowed to compete in the women's category in sport.

I would like to repeat, that CS and ANY other athletes with these physiological advantages must NEVER be allowed to compete in the women's category in sport.

Agreed.

I also don’t know why anyone on this thread would repeat we are speculating on something that is known and has been known for some time.

Unfortunately, many people will not engage the logic gear if it means having to accept they are wrong. Accepting one is wrong creates cognitive dissonance and impacts on the self-esteem.

All I can say is if one has spent a decade looking at CS and persuading oneself there is no Y chromosome at work there, the cognitive dissonance could be quite considerable. Some people just don't want to hand their woke cookies back.

A very good summary of a lot of responses on the topic.

I can't imagine it being ok to say this about Trans on this board. But it's ok now be side a person is inter-sex?

So hypocritical.

Fulfilling male stereotypes doesn't make you a man. But it does have an impact on the sympathetic narrative of 'she's a poor wronged woman' and how this case is reported.

Everyone is raging because 'you can't just tell a woman she's a man', but they're the same people that would agree she's a man if she said so, and call you a bigot if you disagreed because they believe in intrinsic identity. Pointing out that CS doesn't actually 'act' like a woman is pointing out the hypocrisy of the argument. If you go with biology, CS is male. If you go with 'off-track' lifestyle then for all intents and purposes she 'lives as a man' so far as is possible. So in what way is CS female?

CS is genetically male. CS appears to see herself as male except when on the track. She has a wife that identifies as heterosexual. Her genetics and identity both appear to be male. So how can she be in any way described as female?

I do feel for her, despite the fact she has knowingly been unfairly competing for a decade. But the amount of disinformation being spread about the case and the absolutely appalling reporting that misses the pivotal point that she is genetically male and instead paints her as a woman that just wants to continue being her womanly self (rather than the male that she, her wife and her coach appear to consider her to be), is astounding, and it's all because they know the public would have something else to say if she actually made it clear she doesn't really 'identify' as female anyway. It's pure gaslighting and the media is entirely complicit.

The media have become ludicrous over this. I just caught the end of a report yesterday on the Radio 4 Today programme with a male journalist gushing about how Caster was born a woman (nope, born a male baby) and is a woman. He was so emotional about it. This is the unacceptable fervour women's sport is up against.

Radio 4 'Any Answers' on this afternoon will include comments about this.

Orchid thanks for the explanation (way back).

I’ve actually changed my mind due to this thread and the research it prompted me to do. I thought Caster was biologically female with a DSD. I now think she is biologically male, with a DSD.

However, she was assigned female at birth and raised as a girl, and her identity as a woman should be respected. I think we should be sensitive in discussing it (both for Caster and for intersex women reading).

But given sports is sex-segregated, I do not think someone in Caster’s position should continue competing in women’s races.

I’m baffled as to why the governing body didn’t find along those lines, or at least communicate the facts clearly? Most of the media and public seems to think Caster is biologically female (with a DSD).

Yes, but why are so many people (even a few on here) ignoring this fact?

I’m going with female socialisation combined with an effective MSM brainwashing campaign with possibly the odd troll thrown in for good measure.

But the reason for thinking “male” is Caster’s biology. Nothing else. The fact that she played with boys, acts like a boy and is married to a woman should be irrelevant imo.

Because the idea that those things “make you a boy” is currently encouraging thousands of girls (xx) to trans to male.

Here is an example of how articles distort the facts, trying to make out that CS is no different to the US swimmer Katie Ledecky. In fact the reasoning is quite bizarre (as it usually is when people try to use "facts" to illustrate their agenda)
CS is 13 seconds slower than the male winner David Rudisha, yet Ledecky was faster than 8 of the male swimmers.
I wonder why the article didn't point out that Ledecky was in fact 15 seconds slower than the male winner Mack Horton?

www.outsports.com/2019/5/1/18525372/caster-semenya-court-ruling-women-sports-martina-navratilova-intersex

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swimming_at_the_2016_Summer_Olympics#Women's_events

However, she was assigned female at birth and raised as a girl, and her identity as a woman should be respected. I think we should be sensitive in discussing it (both for Caster and for intersex women reading).

But given sports is sex-segregated, I do not think someone in Caster’s position should continue competing in women’s races.

Cf article with comment from Erik Schinegger about his experiences:

"Erik Schinegger was born intersex and assigned female at his birth in 1948
Brought up as a girl, he went on to win gold at the 1966 World Ski Championship
Was disqualified from 1968 Olympics when rare condition was discovered"

[[https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6772989/Intersex-skiing-champion-say-transgender-women-NOT-compete-female-events.html]

apologies, clicky link
www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6772989/Intersex-skiing-champion-say-transgender-women-NOT-compete-female-events.html

Sorry to sound really stupid here but I don't understand why there is so much focus on CS being raised as a female (if indeed she was). I can understand the birth certificate thing ie. CS believing themselves to be a woman however CS is running on the world stage so what would the difference have been if CS had been raised a male? (apart from the fact they wouldn't be competing as they almost certainly wouldn't be good enough).

At some point and certainly when the tests were done CS would have known that they were genetically male, as would the South African athletic federation. Giving CS the benefit of the doubt that this was a shock and maybe difficult to understand, it is fact. What should have happened at that point was that CS should have been told they could not continue to compete as a woman. They all decided this wasn't necessary making CS's participation unfair to all those other women athletes. People keep talking about it being unfair on CS however that's one person compared to many that have been affected. Someone loses out unfortunately and surely one 'casualty' is better than many?

R0wantrees

That's a very interesting article. Especially as it says the man went onto father a child. Something he thought impossible. After he had an operation. They also say it's the same condition that caster has.

Maybe when all this is over and castor can reconcile to their sex, they could have as ultimately fulfilling life as this man obviously has.

@bluebluezoo the details of caster's condition are clear from the published summary of the CAS decision. The IAAF ruling caster was challenging relates to people with 46xy and requires the, to lower their levels of testosterone (to a level still more than double that of the average woman) to compete against women. Caster must have this condition to have standing to challenge the IAAF rule. Therefore Caster is XY with a DSD.

The CAS published summary is well worth a read. It sets it all out clearly.

They also say it's the same condition that caster has.

Datun I read that but was unsure if the writer meant intersex or specifically 46 XY DSD.

(Repeal my last comment wasn’t responding to yours, just continuing mine)

Rowan thanks for link and exactly - why didn’t they rule the same here?

cup I agree, whether she was “raised female” should not be relevant to her eligibility.

However, I will still respect her as a woman given she was raised as one, and had no choice in that i.e. using “he/him” (as I have seen on Twitter) seems a bit mean spirited to me.

Datun I read that but was unsure if the writer meant intersex or specifically 46 XY DSD.

Oh, I read it to be the same condition. But I suppose even within that, there are degrees.

The summary of the CAS ruling is here

https://www.tas-cas.org/fileadmin/userupload/MediaaReleaseSemenyaaASAIAAFF_decision.pdf

On any questions again a man demands we all believe the born a woman idiocy. It was believed a baby was female at the birth. That's turned out to not be the case.

You're welcome 2B. I do think you should read the CAS ruling that eurochick has posted because it explains the decision very clearly. Why the reporting is so deliberately opaque is anybody's guess

Yes, but why are so many people (even a few on here) ignoring this fact?

For the same reason so many people still won’t even read the actual IAAF regulations to see the definition themselves: don’t bother to see for themselves that one does not have to be a biological women to be eligible to compete as a woman.

People choose to go along with the narrative or repeat the talking points instead of look up the information that is easily and readily available. Be it the decision by CAS or the IAAF regulations respecting “female” eligibility. I can only imagine it’s out of trust, laziness, or because to them the truth behind their statements does not matter m as if they say it enough times it becomes the truth.

The majority of babies born with PAIS are 'assigned' male.
There are seven grades of AIS, and grade 7 is CAIS. Grades 1-6 are PAIS. All are genetically male, and all have testes. Most have male or slightly 'ambiguous' genitalia.
Most are brought up as the males they are.

It's very possible that if Semenya has PAIS, had they been born in a different country, they would have correctly been diagnosed and assigned male, at birth.

And none of this would be worth consideration. The question of whether an XY, hormonally responsive, male bodied, testes possessing, testosterone-rich, male-pubertied man with mediocre athletic ability compared to other men, should be allowed to compete with women on account of his ambiguous genitalia? Ludicrous.

People's justifications for why Semenya should ever be considered as viable for women's sports rest on two, flawed premises.

1. Semenya is legally female, having been assigned this way at birth, and raised believing it to be true.
2. Semenya believes even now that she is female - that is her identity.

I've heard both of these arguments and I think they are both flawed.

The first fails to acknowledge that the assignation at birth might, frankly, have been wrong. Another time or place and Semenya would be a man.

The second is why GC feminists are dissecting Semenya's demeanour and presentation. It isn't that we've done a complete U-turn and decided performance does define your sex for you.
Instead it's this: do we believe that Semenya herself really identifies as female? Or is there some other possibility here?
Hypothetically, imagine your entire career depends upon outweighing your known objective male genetics and hormones and physique with the most compelling rationale you have - that you identify as female. It takes huge self-assuredness and confidence to reject all aspects of that performance when you know, superficial as it may be, that this would convince many that you truly identify as a woman.
To demand others accept you are female when your genetics, physique AND performance - which after all many people do truly believe is significant and is possibly a weapon in your arsenal to convince people - all scream 'male'? That's quite a gamble.
Is it possible that Semenya actually sees herself as male, has a general disdain for women, but is compelled to continue with the façade for the sake of her career?
I don't know. It's not impossible to imagine.
Her career and the income of others is heavily invested in continuing the narrative that she is female - despite the biological information to the contrary, AND that she identifies as female, despite very much giving the impression that she doesn't.

I don't know if any of this is miles wide of the mark, it may be.

But it isn't impossible.