Caster Semenya

[LilaJude]

Is anyone else outraged that sports bodies are suggesting forcing Caster Semenyer to take medication to reduce her testosterone levels?

Caster has a naturally occurring phenomenon which gives her more testosterone than the average woman, and this has been deemed a competitive advantage that needs to be medically regulated.

How is this fair? We don’t handicap other athletes for having longer legs or more muscle mass. The nature of sport is that people with exceptional bodies triumph.

It’s like these sports governing bodies are saying ‘testosterone is a man thing, women aren’t allowed it.’ But Caster does have it, naturally, and it’s just part of who she is.

I just think it’s outrageous to force a woman to medicate just because a naturally occurring condition means her body doesn’t fit with what is conventionally seen as feminine / female.

Just like to add one tiny fact about CS, she is married to her long term partner - Violet Raseboya.

www.thesouthafrican.com/who-is-violet-raseboya-caster-semenya-wife/

Nobody is saying she has to be treated as a man from now onwards!

Insisting on male pronouns is going beyond saying she can't compete i women's sport.

Just like to add one tiny fact about CS, she is married to her long term partner - Violet Raseboya.

Yes, and her wife identifies as heterosexual - or certainly did before she met Caster, who she assumed was a man.

In this case, though, Caster never really seems to have lived or 'identified' as a girl - feeling more comfortable in the company of boys, participating in male play and wearing male clothing. Caster has set the tone herself. Yes, of course you can dress and identify with anything you like and still be female or male; but she certainly does not live her life as a stereotypical woman at all.

At a certain level I think you are right, and not being totally GC I think there was likely a link between being intersex and some of these things.

On the other hand I am very hesitant about making what seem to be essentialist statements about gender presentation and norms. I tend to think this is part of what got us where we are now - a vague idea that somehow what you wear or play with is "who you really are." For that matter, I played more with boys and wore male clothing and thought girls were silly growing up, and even as an adult I've tended to work in male dominated environments and I socialise quite a bit with men. (My uncle once jokingly commented to me that every time I came to see him play at the pub I was with a different man, and what did my husband think about this?) Anyway, I'm sure you understand my thinking here.

It's possible of course there is deliberate dishonesty going on, but it's difficult to say for sure. And I think it's quite possible for someone in that position to end up with a somewhat mixed set of social practices in terms of name, clothing, pronoun, whatever. Of all people, I think that's a pretty natural result for someone who is intersex and not something that should be worried about. It doesn't fundamentally challenge the idea of biological sex.

For people from impoverished backgrounds the rewards to be gained from sport can be huge. Enough reason for some perhaps to consider identifying as women. The CS case is different, but is an issue.

And not racist. Remember the East Germans, the more recent Russian dopers, Ma’s Chinese swimmers. Most people had a problem with them as well, and less sympathy. (Actually some sympathy for the athletes themselves, none at all for the authorities that were exploiting them, which may apply here as well.)

goose I have used she/her throughout all my posts. Who is saying she needs to use male pronouns?!?

Doha Golden League meet tonight is Caster's last chance to run 800m unmedicated. It's live on Europort, highlights on BBC tomorrow.

There are people on the thread using male pronouns.

They shouldn't be doing that. Its up to her to choose how she indentifies. Its up to the IAAF to decide if she's allowed to race against women. TBH people need to respect both these decisions and get on with it.

It's possible of course there is deliberate dishonesty going on, but it's difficult to say for sure. And I think it's quite possible for someone in that position to end up with a somewhat mixed set of social practices in terms of name, clothing, pronoun, whatever. Of all people, I think that's a pretty natural result for someone who is intersex and not something that should be worried about

There was a discussion earlier in the thread along the lines of thinking that CS may well end up totally identifying as male once she has retired from professional sport. It wouldn't surprise me at all. Of course, legally, though, she will always be female because of the birth certificate - -and that is why any amendments to the GRA will have serious consequences for women.

They shouldn't be doing that. Its up to her to choose how she indentifies. Its up to the IAAF to decide if she's allowed to race against women. TBH people need to respect both these decisions and get on with it.

It is the birth certificate which has sealed her definition as female, even if she largely, and still seems to, identified as male ( Note the school photo showing CS in boys' uniform, alongside a girl in girl's uniform). I think the SA sports authorities have been very manipulative all along, and used her inter-sex condition for their own advantage.

I think the SA sports authorities have been very manipulative all along, and used her inter-sex condition for their own advantage
I think this is what it boils down to

Athletics South Africa have been absolutely disgraceful about this and continue to dig in, screaming about racism and the return of Apartheid.

www.bbc.co.uk/sport/athletics/48128682

Worth recalling that before they settled on the argument about this being the imposition of colonialist stereotypes on African women, their first reaction was to dress Semenya in a frock and have her quoted about how much she liked it:

news.bbc.co.uk/nol/shared/spl/hi/pop_ups/08/africa_enl_1252420479/img/1.jpg

Some earnest wokester told me recently that maybe in the interests of fairness we could go back to separating races by races, so that it was fair if we weren’t happy with Caster Semenya. I shit you not. They weren’t even just trying to make a Rosa Parks/sunset of women gotcha point, they seemed to genuinely think it was a solution.

South Africa are a fucking disgrace in their handling of this.

Yup, South Africa is shameful over this. But their history overall is pretty dire and even now, trying to come back from apartheid they’re making very similar mistakes- quotas etc etc

I would not be at all surprised if the authorities made a deliberate decision to put CS in this position, and it doesn't speak well of them if they did.

I'm also a bit surprised though at so many people here suggesting that her gender presentation amounts to he living as a male, or even that "identifying" in some way, or even any way, with masculinity is a factor in the situation. The argument I hear on MN is always that these things have nothing to do with biological sex, should not be considered to have anything to do with it, and that such ideas are regressive. Even the possibility of a male brain or sex related behaviour - fairly moderate and mainstream views in science - is often dismissed as sexist and ant-science.

So I feel a little weird about seeing it so prominently in this discussion. I don't think it is odd that CS might have grown up thinking of herself as a GNC girl, and might still think of herself that way even knowing she is biologically male.

Really, it's not just SA - nationalism and consumerism have destroyed many elite sports, IMO, maybe even the idea of elite sports. Certainly the Olympics get farther and farther away from the vision of what they were meant to be.

This would just be one more example.

I have used she/her throughout all my posts. Who is saying she needs to use male pronouns?!?

Yes, I wasn't thinking of you. I am generally not of the view that pronoun usage is just about being polite, but here I think it is appropriate.

I'm also a bit surprised though at so many people here suggesting that her gender presentation amounts to he living as a male, or even that "identifying" in some way, or even any way, with masculinity is a factor in the situation. The argument I hear on MN is always that these things have nothing to do with biological sex, should not be considered to have anything to do with it, and that such ideas are regressive. Even the possibility of a male brain or sex related behaviour - fairly moderate and mainstream views in science - is often dismissed as sexist and ant-science.

As I've said anyone can dress and present how they like and it does not change their sex - that is entirely consistent with GC reasoning.

But the issue with CS is that the media have tried to portray her as being a woman, who lives her life as a woman ( stereotypical role/dress/identification etc) - but she doesn't! And in interviews seems not to identify with or as a woman at all. Not only is much of her biology/body male, but her identification is too.

It's not like she's a butch lesbian dressing in manly ways but who is female in body.

Yes, Francine has confirmed.
www.sport24.co.za/OtherSport/Athletics/olympic-runner-up-to-caster-has-same-testosterone-condition-20190417

Thanks for the link Jenny17 - realised I got my medalists muddled up.

It will be interesting to see where sport goes from here onwards. If I was CS though, I'd be annoyed that my testosterone levels had to be lowered to 5 nanomoles/litre but transwomen will be allowed levels of 10 nanomoles/litre.

Goosefoot: I agree and it’s one of my sadnesses about this whole thing. For several years I heralded Semenya as a great example of a woman defying gender stereotypes and being strong, lesbian, successful etc etc. I began to lose faith in this though as the differences in body type were so extreme..I have written on here before about being in the Rio stadium for the 800m in 2012 and just feeling this was wrong.

So am now doubly disappointed because of my earlier faith in Semenya to realise not only was it wrong for Semenya to be taking medals from women, but many of those involved must have known it was wrong. I believed the narrative of ‘woman with high testosterone’ until this ruling from the CAS this week made it clear this is ‘man living as woman’.

So my earlier belief that Semenya was a woman defeating gender stereotypes is now overturned: Semenya is a man embodying male stereotypes and disparaging women and taking things from them.

But the issue with CS is that the media have tried to portray her as being a woman, who lives her life as a woman ( stereotypical role/dress/identification etc) - but she doesn't! And in interviews seems not to identify with or as a woman at all. Not only is much of her biology/body male, but her identification is too. It's not like she's a butch lesbian dressing in manly ways but who is female in body.

I think though most people these days actually agree with the idea that being a lesbian, or dressing a certain way, does not mean someone is a man, to a large extent it's the default for most. And similarly, when they say that someone "identifies" as a woman all they mean is that is how they think of themselves, not that they like female stuff. They probably have some contradictory feelings about it, but if you stopped them and said, well, aren't those things just stereotypes, women who like baseball caps and are lesbians are still women, they'd agree.

So when the press says she lives as a woman, all it really means is that she thinks of herself as one, or at least says she does, and checks that box on a form, and it says it on her birth certificate.

Apologies if this has already been mentioned up thread.
But apart from anything else, abdominal/undescended testes are a cancer risk, in fact it is one of the main risk factors for testicular cancer.
I have haven't a clue what current advice is for someone with Caster's specific condition but certainly boys with undescended testicles are operated on to rectify that in early childhood (assuming diagnosis).
If she had the testes removed wouldn't testosterone drop off naturally?

Here we go on Eurosport.

Nice to see Lynsey Sharpe out there, not short of an opinion on the subject.