Caster Semenya

[LilaJude]

Is anyone else outraged that sports bodies are suggesting forcing Caster Semenyer to take medication to reduce her testosterone levels?

Caster has a naturally occurring phenomenon which gives her more testosterone than the average woman, and this has been deemed a competitive advantage that needs to be medically regulated.

How is this fair? We don’t handicap other athletes for having longer legs or more muscle mass. The nature of sport is that people with exceptional bodies triumph.

It’s like these sports governing bodies are saying ‘testosterone is a man thing, women aren’t allowed it.’ But Caster does have it, naturally, and it’s just part of who she is.

I just think it’s outrageous to force a woman to medicate just because a naturally occurring condition means her body doesn’t fit with what is conventionally seen as feminine / female.

I'm generally not in favour of pretending about pronouns and such because someone decides they what to change their gender, I think it assumes things that I don't believe about language and biology, and I think it tends to bias the discussion about biology and identity not to.

I think it's pretty different though with someone who in all honesty was thought ad raised as a member of a particular sex and wants to carry on with the same identity markers when they find out, as an adult, that it is more complicated than that. By all means, amend their classification for things which pertain specifically to biology, otherwise I think it's justified to acknowledge that it is really a more complicated situation.

The coverage of Caster using “she/her” etc is exactly part of why it seems the majority of people have no clue they are not an “intersex female” but an “intersex male”. It shows why pronouns matter, and they matter when the media is talking about things that affects women, be it sports or violence.

Besides, we don’t know what Caster wants to actually be called when sports aren’t on the line. We know they aren’t too fond of women:

Sako’s English was fluent but rough, and he frequently referred to Semenya as “he.” “Caster was very free when he is in the male company,” Sako said. “I remember one day I asked her, ‘Why are you always in the company of men?’ He said, ‘No, man, I don’t have something to say to girls, they talks nonsense. They are always out of order’.

www.newyorker.com/magazine/2009/11/30/eitheror

Oh for FFS:

“compared to the XY girls” should be “XX girls” obviously. Even my iPhone is now confused.

Just to add to the controversy (from 2009)

www.dailytelegraph.com.au/z-redesign/archive-sport/doping-expert-coached-semenya/news-story/cbb158c8e315c00a99b202ab3f354049

Does anyone know whether this ruling affects athletes Margaret Wambui and Francine Niyonsaba (who took Silver and Bronze medals respectively behind CS's gold) in the Rio Olympics Women's 800m?

CS is not some innocent victim in all this. There has been a long & calculated campaign, backed by the South African sporting authorities to get her accepted into female middle distance running, despite them all knowing exactly what her biological make up was.
The only surprise is that it has taken this long to bring it to an end. She is still able to enter longer distances as a female, despite being biologically male. I believe 5000m is the next target.
She runs for the final time in the female 800m race, before the rules change, at the diamond league in Doha today.

I have read a couple of the South African news headlines over the past hour and they have dug themselves in and are firmly backing CS, suggesting that this is purely down to racism/imperialism/white people making decisions, totally ignoring the facts about biology and sports ethics.

I am particularly incensed about the framing by South Africa of this being racist or white superiority, how fucking dare they.

Fatima whitbread does look very male at first glance, however she had periods and has given birth, so if she has any XY cells it could only be a case of mosiacism I think.

Certainly not in the same boat as CS.

I am particularly incensed about the framing by South Africa of this being racist or white superiority, how fucking dare they

It’s a bit of a head meet wall moment isn’t it? Playing the race card like this diminishes the ability to challenge the ACTUAL racism that has been provoked by all this. Absolute wankers.

EweSurname

"Just to add to the controversy (from 2009)"

Also to add to the controversy which most of our press ignored in 2003

"Why has it all gone so quiet? The response to the news that Denise Lewis is being coached by a man prominent for two decades in the East German drug programme has been strangely muted."

"In the immediate aftermath of the revelations that Carl Lewis was among those many Americans whose positive drugs tests before the Seoul Olympics were covered up by complicit administrators of US Athletics, the last thing the sport needed was another link to doping."

www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/othersports/athletics/2400556/Athletics-British-athletics-should-be-wary-of-Dr-Arbeit.html

You see, I have the same attitude to sport in general as I have with regard to women's sport, it should be fair and even handed.

This article makes an interesting point. Why are no outlets reporting CS is XY?

www.letsrun.com/news/2019/05/what-no-one-is-telling-you-about-caster-semenya-she-has-xy-chromosomes/

This is quite a good article

www.letsrun.com/news/2019/05/what-no-one-is-telling-you-about-caster-semenya-she-has-xy-chromosomes/

Perhaps they could have added that responsiveness to testosterone varies with 46 XY DSD people. In Caster's case her body produces testosterone and is responsive which masculinises it

*The coverage of Caster using “she/her” etc is exactly part of why it seems the majority of people have no clue they are not an “intersex female” but an “intersex male”. It shows why pronouns matter, and they matter when the media is talking about things that affects women, be it sports or violence.

Besides, we don’t know what Caster wants to actually be called when sports aren’t on the line.*

Yes, it's important to be clear about this, so far as we know the details, because it does confuse people. However, I don't think this changes the fact that it's a reasonable approach to take to someone who has, until adulthood, lived as a girl and woman. Even one who doesn't like other girls much, which is common enough even among the gender-non conforming who are biologically female.

As far as what she'd do if sports weren't an issue, we don't know that, can't know that, and for that matter CS might not know that.

I think there is also a public element to this question too - while I think many people understand the basic issues with men in women's sports, and quite a few are skeptical of trans advocacy when they find out what it really includes, I think quite a few would balk at insisting treating someone who thought they were female throughout childhood as a man in the social sphere, unless the person preferred that. That's not the major consideration perhaps but I think one worth considering carefully.

. In Caster's case her body produces testosterone and is responsive which masculinises it

My embryology is likely out of date but if I recall correctly if CS’s body responds to testosterone that is what leads to penis and scrotum formation. Absence of, or non responsiveness to testosterone gives a phenotypical female.

Can anyone explain how CS has testosterone, and is sensitive to it, yet male genitalia didn’t form correctly?

micah it might be because responsiveness to testosterone isn't yes/no, but a spectrum, it might also be that its a case of genital malformation. It might be there is nothing female about her other than her lack of penis, which might fall into the birth defect category.

Slightly O/T, but I have been thinking about other types of exclusions in sports, such as weight classes in boxing. I wonder why it is they in some sports and not others. You could have basketball for short people, for example.

From a feminist perspective, this is crucial.
Women are too often considered a category of leftovers. Effeminate men, men with a female gender identity, men who haven't developed properly.

Yes.......boys without penises being passed off as girls, as if all that makes a girl is a lack of penis, and all that makes a man is a penis.
Didn't Freud see the female sex organ as a wound - the site of a missing penis?

*She has a medical condition that is her business. We have no idea on the details, it is all conjecture.8

That is not true - it is no longer just her business. And there have been links posted already to reports and articles which do mention CS's condition in more detail.

Lordamighty

"She is still able to enter longer distances as a female, despite being biologically male. I believe 5000m is the next target."

I honestly do not think that she should be able to compete at all in the women's category. She won the 400m, 800m and 1,500m in the space of 4 hours at the South African championships in 2016, setting world leading times at the 2 shorter distances, so I think a 5,000m is within her capability.

*I think quite a few would balk at insisting treating someone who thought they were female throughout childhood as a man in the social sphere, unless the person preferred that.

I don't think anyone's advocating for that. And none of this would matter if it wasn't for the issue of sports and women's rights.

Cs was born and raised female. At this moment i don’t give a shit about the sporting side, in the midst of all this is a human being with a genetic disorder, a personal one which is now being speculated on by the whole world, who is being told what they are and who they should be.

This has ben discussed at length but you keep on saying the same things - as if those conversations had not happened. Nobody is telling anybody who they"should be". But the unfortunate fact here is that CS's case has become big news - and for obvious and important reasons.
The root of this is the nature of the condition she was born with, which is one that renders her effectively male, although legally classified as female, and thus permitted to compete in women's races. This is the issue. the issue cannot be resolved without investigation and discussion. We have every right to discuss this issue here - and to look at the evidence at hand.

Yes, it's uncomfortable and unfortunate that one person becomes the focus - but it does happen from time to time and is just the way it goers. As it happens, I think Caster's own agents and the sporting authorities have some responsibility for the level of focus on solely on her.

Does anyone know whether this ruling affects athletes Margaret Wambui and Francine Niyonsaba (who took Silver and Bronze medals respectively behind CS's gold) in the Rio Olympics Women's 800m?

Yes, Francine has confirmed.
www.sport24.co.za/OtherSport/Athletics/olympic-runner-up-to-caster-has-same-testosterone-condition-20190417

I think quite a few would balk at insisting treating someone who thought they were female throughout childhood as a man in the social sphere, unless the person preferred that. That's not the major consideration perhaps but I think one worth considering carefully.

In this case, though, Caster never really seems to have lived or 'identified' as a girl - feeling more comfortable in the company of boys, participating in male play and wearing male clothing. Caster has set the tone herself. Yes, of course you can dress and identify with anything you like and still be female or male; but she certainly does not live her life as a stereotypical woman at all.

Nobody is saying she has to be treated as a man from now onwards!

She just can't compete in the women's 800m.

I hope there is more to life than athletics...because I also can't compete in the women's 800m and I would hate for that to define me.