Caster Semenya

[LilaJude]

Is anyone else outraged that sports bodies are suggesting forcing Caster Semenyer to take medication to reduce her testosterone levels?

Caster has a naturally occurring phenomenon which gives her more testosterone than the average woman, and this has been deemed a competitive advantage that needs to be medically regulated.

How is this fair? We don’t handicap other athletes for having longer legs or more muscle mass. The nature of sport is that people with exceptional bodies triumph.

It’s like these sports governing bodies are saying ‘testosterone is a man thing, women aren’t allowed it.’ But Caster does have it, naturally, and it’s just part of who she is.

I just think it’s outrageous to force a woman to medicate just because a naturally occurring condition means her body doesn’t fit with what is conventionally seen as feminine / female.

Can I ask a (probably silly) question.

The IAAF rules apply to someone who is legally female or, where the definition exists, legally intersex, and who, within that, has one of 5 specific DSDs.

So someone who is legally female and XX does not have to undergo any testosterone lowering (as I understand the DSDs in question are XY DSDs?)

Is there a separate set of rules for someone who is legally female, XY, and does not have an intersex condition? Eg a transwoman with a GRC?

i wondered this too. Does a legal woman XX with a naturally high level of testosterone, higher than the cut off point, also have to take testosterone-lowering drugs to compete?

Or does this just never happen medically perhaps?

question for the sports scientists/bio mechanics people on this thread - do you think it is ever going to be possible for men and women to compete on a level playing field in athletics - or does male levels of testosterone, as I suspect, just completely wipe the floor with female bodies? I think I know the answer to that now but just wondering what the science says. I think I used to naively think it was just a matter of time before women caught up - with better training, better coaching etc. Having seen my male children go through puberty now though, I think it's a pipe dream.

They aren’t biologically male- no penis, testes are likely to be internal, rudimentary and unlikely to produce sperm.

The difficulty in discovering a DSD later in life is not relevant in setting the boundaries for biological categories. Concepts of identity and upbringing are irrelevant in terms of determining sex (which I'll admit does sound very cold hearted, but science is not there to make people feel good), but are very relevant when discussing the impact emotionally of this on the athletes affected. These are different issues though and shouldn't be conflated.

A male born without a penis is not a female. The fact that CS' testes have not descended also does not make them female. CS is genetically male, with a DSD. The starting point is male, not female. Her DSD is a deviation from typical male development, not a deviation from female development. Determining her to be genetically male isn't 'arbitrary', it is factual. Female is a biological category in its own right, not just 'anyone that is not a male that develops in the typical or expected way'. When paired with a sensitivity to testosterone and the physiological changes that come with that during puberty as in CS' case, I struggle to understand the objective rationale for claiming CS is biologically female and should therefore be permitted to continue competing against females.

Calpop - have a look at this: fairplayforwomen.com/biological-sex-differences/

Men/female differences in adulthood are much more than just testosterone

Female is a biological category in its own right, not just 'anyone that is not a male that develops in the typical or expected way'.

From a feminist perspective, this is crucial.
Women are too often considered a category of leftovers. Effeminate men, men with a female gender identity, men who haven't developed properly.

The perception that women are not an entity in their own right, permeates.

CS is XY and, not but, androgen sensitive

No, CS is absolutely androgen sensitive.

That is the only reason why they fall in the regulations, and challenge the regulations, which included 5 XY DSDs that all have various androgen sensitivity (can be partial, but testosterone can also not be an issue at all as the issue is related to another hormone).

Someone like Clare who has CAIS would not fall in the regulations. CAIS is for one, not included, and two, they would not have the circulating testosterone needed to be captured by the regulations.

That's what i said :)

It's not "CS is XY but androgen sensitive (like that is abnormal)"

It's "CS is XY and androgen sensitive - as is normally the case in males."

someone with standard XX chromosomes has abnormally high levels of testosterone by chance then surely this counts as lucky genetic accident, like Michael Phelps' ankles, Usain Bolt's muscle fibres etc. For this reason I don't think artificially lowering testosterone levels is the answer

The IAAF regulations do not require XX to lower their testosterone to compete, they capture XY DSDs.

Oh, I misunderstood! Sorry and thanks for clarifying!

That's good - though of course gives the TRAs more to whine about (and hard for CS who is the victim in this)

NP was badly worded :)

‘Legal’ sex varies according to local laws. It’s useless to decide who can compete in international competitions. It has to be biological sex that matters, because that is based on objective facts.

Someone like Clare who has CAIS would not fall in the regulations. CAIS is for one, not included, and two, they would not have the circulating testosterone needed to be captured by the regulations.

Individuals with CAIS have normal male levels of testosterone though. Their (undescended) testes work with regard to testosterone production but they lack the receptors to utilise the hormone, their bodies are not virilised at all.

The IAAF accounts for this by clarifying that the rules of lowered testosterone apply to DSD XY individuals who are androgen responsive.

Can anyone answer my question? What are the rules for legally female, non intersex, XY people?

bluebluezoo

"Google Fatima Whitbread. when she was competing everyone said exactly the same."

Unbelievable, that is almost on a par with what McKinnon said about Sharron Davies.
Fatima married Andy Norman in 1997 , and she gave birth to a baby son.

CS is not phenotypically female

How do you know? Afaik CS has, rightly, not made the details of her condition public.

Insisting on calling CS “he”, is fucking rude, btw. She has a medical condition that is her business. We have no idea on the details, it is all conjecture.

Cs was born and raised female. At this moment i don’t give a shit about the sporting side, in the midst of all this is a human being with a genetic disorder, a personal one which is now being speculated on by the whole world, who is being told what they are and who they should be.

Can anyone answer my question? What are the rules for legally female, non intersex, XY people?

If you are talking about IAAF then they would not be included as to fall in the regulations you need to be legally recognized as female or intersex AND need one of the listed DSDs. The definitions are not or the other.

The regulations for female eligibility are publicly available on their website for anyone who wants to know who falls within the eligibility to compete as female.

If you are talking about other competitive sports bodies, well, we already know many allow XY men without DSDs to identify and compete as women.

USA Powerlifting is one of few (only) that has said “no way”. Some may say nothing hoping it does not become an issue, but others have said “come on in!” as long as if you identify as female. Including Canada’s Winter/Summer Games (you just need to identify where you want to compete and be housed, so convenient!), IOC, UCI, etc.

Do you understand what the meaning of “phenotypically female” is?

Phenotype: the set of observable characteristics of an individual resulting from the interaction of its genotype with the environment.

We don’t need to have their condition disclosed because there are observable characteristics. No, the only thing they have made public is their lawyers saying they are “definitely female” but we know bases on the regulations challenged they are XY with testes. This is public knowledge.

Their condition would have been their business if they chose not to compete against women when they had an XY DSD with androgen sensitivity. They made their condition everyone’s business by challenging the IAAF regulations to lower their testosterone, when they could have instead switched to a longer distance, or stopped competing internationally.

I will call Caster what I want on here. They are an XY male. They have known they were one for at least ten years. I am not going to participate anymore in the gaslighting that the lawyers, media, and IAAF has engaged in on this issue for the last ten years.

CS is a human. I agree. But that does not mean I need to be happy with an XY human being eligible to compete at high levels against XX humans.

bluebluezoo

No, their condition has been known since 2009 and was again made clear in the ruling, did you read it?

in the midst of all this is a human being with a genetic disorder, a personal one which is now being speculated on by the whole world, who is being told what they are and who they should be.

It’s being discussed because Caster is an elite athlete that has appealed a decision and has insisted on competing despite knowing they have a significant advantage for at least a decade. It’s public because Caster chose to be an athlete and chose to pursue this case. They are not being told who they should be, they are being told which category they can compete in and under what circumstances, a question Caster asked of them. Being an elite athlete is intrusive in all manner of ways, it’s part and parcel of being a professional sportsperson- you know they have to pee in front of people and have them really really watch it coming out and where it comes from right??? Like, this is an instructive business!

FeministCat well said

And CS was not “born” female. CS was born male and is one of the rare cases where they were actually “assigned” male because of the appearance of their newborn external genitalia.

What does “raises as a female” mean to you in this case? They never went through female puberty. They never had periods or developed breasts. It sounds like CS themselves has fought against this “raised” as a girl thing most of their life, not quite seeing themselves that way, though they competed against girls. And why not, because they did not have a penis and they were fast compared to the XY girls - good motives for CS and their coaches.

David Reimer was also raised as girl because of his external appearance. Because other adults told him what they should be, based on their own lack of understanding, fear, and in his case, many ulterior motives. He still was a boy, as he later made very clear.

That should say “assigned female”

FeministCat

👏👏👏👏👏

"Cs was born and raised female. At this moment i don’t give a shit about the sporting side"

You may feel that way about the "sporting side" but Caster's opponents have been destroyed by this, and one shouldn't forget, that if it hadn't been for the "sporting side" we would never have heard of Caster Semenya.
The fact is that the South African sporting authorities, CS's coach, IAAF have let this saga run and run, knowing fullwell what is happening.
I along with others on here, who originally had a lot of sympathy for CS, now find that sympathy evaporating.
I have read a couple of the South African news headlines over the past hour and they have dug themselves in and are firmly backing CS, suggesting that this is purely down to racism/imperialism/white people making decisions, totally ignoring the facts about biology and sports ethics.