Caster Semenya

[LilaJude]

Is anyone else outraged that sports bodies are suggesting forcing Caster Semenyer to take medication to reduce her testosterone levels?

Caster has a naturally occurring phenomenon which gives her more testosterone than the average woman, and this has been deemed a competitive advantage that needs to be medically regulated.

How is this fair? We don’t handicap other athletes for having longer legs or more muscle mass. The nature of sport is that people with exceptional bodies triumph.

It’s like these sports governing bodies are saying ‘testosterone is a man thing, women aren’t allowed it.’ But Caster does have it, naturally, and it’s just part of who she is.

I just think it’s outrageous to force a woman to medicate just because a naturally occurring condition means her body doesn’t fit with what is conventionally seen as feminine / female.

I'm sorry you're upset by this discussion Clare. The backlash isn't about you, it's about someone who went through a male puberty which you didn't competing on a level playing field with women who didn't go through a male puberty.

I wish Caster had never run at elite level and I'm sorry that people are getting hurt in the process

I think most women on this thread can understand how upsetting it must be for intersex people to have this very heated and sensitive topic being discussed around them. It has eventuated because of less than honest sports officials and because Caster herself wanted to pursue this, and therefore would of known their details would eventually be made public and therefore discussed. As much as I can understand how weird it is to have your body and medical decisions discussed, this can happen around some women’s rights issues in a general sense too, the uncomfortable truth is that a very oppressed and vulnerable sex class are being horribly disadvantaged in sport and it needs to be discussed openly and honestly, finally.
I am sad that intersex people unrelated to this case are being targeted and having their identity questioned, intersex is clearly not the same as transgender and it is incredibly unfair to connect the two in any way. I personally have no issue recognising and respecting the identity of an intersex person in all other areas of life. With regards to sports, we unfortunately have to take a much more scientific approach and discuss the finer points in order to protect women’s sports. I would of hoped the conversation on Caster could of happened without anyone else being targeted as a result. I do think Caster themselves has created a lot of the unpleasant aspects of the conversation by deliberately withholding aspects of their life, with things clearly not matching up with what we’ve been told, and indeed by pursuing this.

Care

I agree that trans and intersex should not be conflated.

With regard to CS it is a sad and complex story. The circumstances at birth led to them being assigned - in this incidence assigned rather than observed - female and was raised female. However with more medical information, that they are XY, apparently had undescended testes and went through male puberty, has male testosterone levels and a male physiology - all of this combined would make them biologically male. Each intersex person needs to be looked at case by case as they will all be different, your body for example changing testosterone to oestrogen.

Up until yesterday I fiercely supported CS's right to race as female but I no longer can. I believe CS is a victim in all of this and being used as a TRA pawn. However CS has gone from a child in a small African village with limited future to international fame and considerable fortune and I would not take any of that away from them. However I do believe they no longer deserve the right to compete against biological women.

I hope this does not come across disrespectful in anyway towards you or other intersex people I am trying to look at the situation as objectively as I can but appreciate that's not always possible and I like anyone will have bias.

*Clare

Clare, I am so sorry you got dragged into this. The language is horrible, it is polarised and it is hurtful. It is also necessary to counter the abusive arguments that woman can mean anything.
By having words and meanings erased we are having to draw clear lines in the sand. Clearer than I would like and I don't want to exclude, it makes me feel awful and I can't imagine how it feels for someone now caught on the other side of that line. But I feel I have to, to protect myself, my daughters and all other women who otherwise don't stand a chance.
I hate the TRAs who are forcing this by taking a mile when you give them an inch.

I think for current cases this mess is just going to continue until they retire. I really hope though that the IAAF are now introducing mandatory genetic testing for all elite athletes going forward so people like CS don't have to go through this in the future, through no fault of their own.

In very simplistic terms, but speaking as a former geneticist, surely we have to say that 2 things are male-determining:

1. Presence of a Y chromosome with the normal concurrent placement of the male SRY gene
2. Those very rare mutations where there is an SRY gene present but no Y chromosomes due to cross over mutations etc.

I don't know what would happen in the cases of mosaicism where some cells have Y chromosomes/SRY gene and some do not, but this is likely to be so rare as to be very unlikely to come up.

And then what about CAIS people? What if they want to be elite athletes as genetic males?. Or PAIS? I think the harsh reality is that they are genetic males and will be treated as such.

Of course, now that we are allowing transgender genetic males to compete in female sports - insane, they will just get lumped in with them.

We all predicted that the TRAs would conflate being transgender - a choice - with intersex /DSD - no choice - and how damaging it would be? Now it is happening. It makes me very angry.

equally I can’t let emotive arguments that damage women go

This.

The trans lobby have forced this to a point where women have to speak out and stand up against it, the lobby has used everyone it can without the faintest conscience for their own agenda and doesn't care in the slightest who is hurt or damaged by it, and that lobby as well as others are relying on women wanting to protect people's feelings and limiting what they will say and do, not wanting to cause hurt and so limiting what they will say and do and challenge, and playing on women's socialised responses to emotive calls to limit what they will say and do and stand up against, in order to force legislative change against them that will cause extreme damage to the rights and interests of women.

Michelleoftheresistance
Thank you for expanding on my point. Great post.

Clare
I am so sorry you have been attacked on Twitter.
I haven't contributed to this thread because I think there are lots of women who put the various points much better than I could, but i am sure no one wants to upset intersex men and women who are just living their lives as best they can.

I don’t see how this whole shitstorm does damage womens rights.

I get the anger against sex and TRA. I strongly believe in the binary, and while people are completely free to adopt whichever gender stereotypes they wish, they cannot change biology.

But as ever there are exceptions. Cs is one. She isn’t within the binary.

Saying people like her, and clare, are unquestionably male, is wrong. I get the impression the insistence on “XY= male” is driven by the backlash against TRA and the desire to box off women and protect our rights. Which again, I agree with.

Intersex is rare. CS’s type of intersex even rarer. An intersex elite athlete like CS is practically a unicorn.

In the past there have been other intersex athletes. But in today’s society most will be diagnosed around puberty. If CS hadn’t been born and grown up where she did it is likely she would have been diagnosed before she started competing and this whole discussion would never have happened.

Yes humans are a binary sex. But insisting women like Claire and CS are male is wrong.

Where that all fits into sport is a complete fuck storm. Personally I think there are far too many variables in the make up of an elite athlete and this sole focus on testosterone is misleading. As far as I’m aware, CS doesn’t have male levels of testosterone either, and isn’t even close to elite men’s running times.

I suspect, and hope, Cs is likely to be the last intersex elite athlete as diagnosis and awareness reaches all corners of the earth. I have every sympathy with women like her and Clare. But they are not trans, it is a different fight and intersex should not be used to fight the TRA war.

Caster and Clare have different DSDs. Clare would not be subject to the ruling that Caster is (I don’t think).

I am extremely concerned about allegations that scouts are deliberately looking for athletes with Casters condition to compete in women’s sports.

I have to go with Wittgenstein.

Definition is sometimes not a simple binary. In many cases, it is a matter of identifying a set of characteristics associated with the type. The subject may not tick all the boxes, but if they tick the great majority and tick few if any of the contrary alternative, then we are entitled to make an arbitray distinction.

So, in waht sense is Caster Semenya female?

• Does she have XX Chromasomes?
• Does she have ovaries?
• Does she have a uteris?
• Does she menstruate?
• Does she have a female pelvis?
• Does she have a female larynx and Adam's Apple?

Etc.

Saying people like her, and clare, are unquestionably male, is wrong.

They do not have the same condition.

I'm sorry but I think CS is a biological male. You can see that she clearly responds to testosterone and is built like a biological male. What we do with that is the question. My feeling is that it is too late and unfair to stop her competing now. Going forward, it needs to be evaluated on a case by case basis I guess - because someone with CAIS for example perhaps has a defensible reason to race as a women. If a panel of experts can show that they are effectively indistinguishable from standard XX females. I really don't think this is the case with CS.

If someone with standard XX chromosomes has abnormally high levels of testosterone by chance then surely this counts as lucky genetic accident, like Michael Phelps' ankles, Usain Bolt's muscle fibres etc. For this reason I don't think artificially lowering testosterone levels is the answer - and is ethically questionable anyway. There has to be an initial classification - male or female events. Or we just mix them all up, make everyone compete together, effectively eradicating female sport and be done with it.

I also agree that there is no need in general for there to be hard and fast XY = male regardless type separation.

There are really only two spheres in which this matters, elite sport (unless the 'women's' category is eradicated) and medicine.

It is important to CS that she is XY and has testes in terms of her medical treatment and screening for cancer etc. and in that she is competing at an elite level with a body that has in fact turned out to be very much male in its development and hence cannot compete in the female category.

If she had decided on any other profession she could have continued as a woman with no issue barring the medical.

The whole problem with the politicisation of intersex is that it is starting to spread into areas where it makes no bloody difference to anyone whether someone has a Y chromosome or not.

I am so sorry Claire that people are dragging you into something that has nothing to do with you and should have no impact on your life at all.

A Y chromosome alone will not result in a person being male. In fact a young women reading this might have a Y chromosome and not even know.It is only a Y chromosome plus sensitivity to androgens (together) that can result in a person experiencing a male puberty.

my understanding is that someone can have XY but be insenitive to androgens resulting in external and internal female genitalia, reproductive system and secondary sexual characteristics, but be genetically male.

Of course Caster Semenya is XY but androgen sensitive. Effectively male in all but legal status due to the birth certificate.

I am extremely concerned about allegations that scouts are deliberately looking for athletes with Casters condition to compete in women’s sports

Where will they find them? A quick google (i am no geneticist) gives the occurrence of 46 XY F as 6 in 100000, so in the UK roughly 4000 people. Of them, most will have Clare’s type of DSD. From those remaining, the chance they have other attributes of an elite sprinter- fast twitch muscles, anaerobic capacity, biomechanical levers, competition psychology, exposure to the sport, supportive parents etc...

Any DsD athletes will likely come from those countries with large populations and extensive sports programmes. Those countries already have no issues about unethical practices like falsifying birthdates, doping etc. Dsd athletes will be a drop in the ocean.

I coach elite sport. It is unlikely I will ever find that one off athlete who will go to the olympics. It is even more unlikely that athlete will have a dsd.

Yes humans are a binary sex. But insisting women like Claire and CS are male is wrong.

I don't think that is what is happening at all. Claire clearly has a different profile to Caster Semenya - and is a woman( for all meaningful intents and purposes, whereas Caste Semenya is not.

CS is XY and, not but, androgen sensitive - this is the standard case in biological males. The speculation is that she has partial androgen insensitivity syndrome or 5α-Reductase deficiency, which are intersex conditions / Disorders of Sexual Development where mutations in genes that produce enzymes or hormone receptors mean that XY genetically male bodies cannot respond to testosterone in the normal way. This only effects genetic XY males.

I coach elite sport. It is unlikely I will ever find that one off athlete who will go to the olympics. It is even more unlikely that athlete will have a dsd.

...."However Bermon insists the issue was more prevalent than is realised. “We have a lot of athletes with this kind of condition. It is not just the one or two people you hear about in the media. In elite female athletics the number of intersex athletes is 140 times more than what you might find in the normal female population" : www.theguardian.com/sport/2018/apr/26/iaaf-doctor-calls-for-intersex-category-athletics-caster-semenya

Im sorry but I think CS is a biological male. You can see that she clearly responds to testosterone and is built like a biological male

Google Fatima Whitbread. when she was competing everyone said exactly the same.

If you had a baby girl with Caster’s condition what would you do? Chances are she’d not be diagnosed til 13 or 14 when she failed to enter female puberty.

Do you tell your daughter she’s a male, end of? No. It is not that simple.

Yes clare and CS have different responses to androgens. Bottom line is they are phenotypically female. Change their nappies, see them in the shower, female. They grow up believing they’re female. You can’t arbitarily decide for someone what their sex is in cases like this. They aren’t biologically male- no penis, testes are likely to be internal, rudimentary and unlikely to produce sperm.

They don’t fit the normal binary so nobody should impose that binary on them.

But as ever there are exceptions. Cs is one. She isn’t within the binary.

I disagree - but even if that was true, not being ‘within the binary’ would not entirely her to compete against those who are within the binary, and unquestionably on the female side of that binary.

If you had a baby girl with Caster’s condition what would you do? Chances are she’d not be diagnosed til 13 or 14 when she failed to enter female puberty.Do you tell your daughter she’s a male, end of? No. It is not that simple.

No, it's not simple....and further confused in this case because Semenya never really seemed to identify as a girl either; being " brought up with boys" and eschewing femininity. So her gender identity didn't even seem to be girl either.

For for the purpose of sport and fairness in sport it is biology and not gender identity that is important.

Google Fatima Whitbread. when she was competing everyone said exactly the same.

Do you know that Fatima Whitbread doesn't have an intersex condition /DSD?

If you had a baby girl with Caster’s condition what would you do? Chances are she’d not be diagnosed til 13 or 14 when she failed to enter female puberty. Do you tell your daughter she’s a male, end of? No. It is not that simple.

I'd tell her, and her doctors, that she had male genetics - because it's medically important. I'd let her live a however she wanted to in line with my gender critical beliefs. I wouldn't, however, encourage her to go into elite female sports.

Yes clare and CS have different responses to androgens. Bottom line is they are phenotypically female. Change their nappies, see them in the shower, female. They grow up believing they’re female. You can’t arbitarily decide for someone what their sex is in cases like this. They aren’t biologically male- no penis, testes are likely to be internal, rudimentary and unlikely to produce sperm.

CS is not phenotypically female imo. The key part of that word being typically.

They don’t fit the normal binary so nobody should impose that binary on them.

I agree with this, they are deviations from the standard sex binary. I don't believe that means that they can necessarily be shoehorned into one of those binary's elite sports though. As I said, it has to be case by case or at least condition by condition. I don't believe that PAIS or 5α-Reductase deficiency, if indeed that is the condition CS has, make it appropriate or fair for people with them to compete in elite female sports. While we have the binary sex segregation for sports - male and female events, we have to stick to that binary classification surely. Or come up with a different system. eg the one suggested - presence of Y chromosome and demonstrable androgen sensitivity - you go in the male/faster races.

"The trans lobby have forced this to a point where women have to speak out and stand up against it, the lobby has used everyone it can without the faintest conscience for their own agenda and doesn't care in the slightest who is hurt or damaged by it, and that lobby as well as others are relying on women wanting to protect people's feelings and limiting what they will say and do, not wanting to cause hurt and so limiting what they will say and do and challenge, and playing on women's socialised responses to emotive calls to limit what they will say and do and stand up against, in order to force legislative change against them that will cause extreme damage to the rights and interests of women."

@Michelleoftheresistance - this is precisely what makes me so angry about the trans activists - all that, plus the way they use aggressive and intimidatory tactics to try to silence women.

I have been accused of being a transphobe. I am not phobic - a phobia is a fear, I am not afraid - I am absolutely furious.