Caster Semenya

[LilaJude]

Is anyone else outraged that sports bodies are suggesting forcing Caster Semenyer to take medication to reduce her testosterone levels?

Caster has a naturally occurring phenomenon which gives her more testosterone than the average woman, and this has been deemed a competitive advantage that needs to be medically regulated.

How is this fair? We don’t handicap other athletes for having longer legs or more muscle mass. The nature of sport is that people with exceptional bodies triumph.

It’s like these sports governing bodies are saying ‘testosterone is a man thing, women aren’t allowed it.’ But Caster does have it, naturally, and it’s just part of who she is.

I just think it’s outrageous to force a woman to medicate just because a naturally occurring condition means her body doesn’t fit with what is conventionally seen as feminine / female.

Oh, and the regulations include 5 specific DSDs do we know Caster falls into one of those, not some special category that fits nowhere.

Oh, and the regulations include 5 specific DSDs do we know Caster falls into one of those, not some special category that fits nowhere. WHich does sort of show that it is far more complex than might have been initially imagined. All of those will, over the last 10 years, have been included in research focussing on the dis / advantages conferred on performance.

Which is why I hold out hope for the research to be used in future TRA actions.

Thanks NotBad , very helpful. I’m learning a lot from this thread.

Thanks Femcat, in terms of “category” I meant male or female? As I thought despite the complex variations, an intersex person is one or the other (although with atypical development).

(That was me asking the question too delicately.)

Yes, I think the reporting on this over the last ten years has done a huge disservice to the laypersons understanding of the case.
Caster’s lawyers saying Caster was “unquestionably female” or that her high testosterone was a “naturally occurring phenomenon” without adding “for an XY person” or “for a man with testes” did not help either.

The regulations are actually there for all to see and download but it appears few media reports on this actually provide either a citation or a link to them to let people see for themselves who can be a “female” in certain IAAF events. If there is any question mainstream journalism has become nothing more than talking heads and a summary of “what this person said” without questioning “what this person said”, this ought to solve it.

The few places, over and above Jeremy Vine, I have looked today have been woefully fluffy. A fear of stating the obvious persists, it seems.

I just want Sharron Davies or Martina Navratilova's opinions to be widely published. They tend to include a very good dose of easy to undertsand, bluntly put science. Take the 2 with their slightly differing stances, together and I suspect they will properly educate a lot of people who might have thought it was all so very complicated - or oh so very obvious!

Someone asked what would hapen if a boy had the same condition... I replied nothing much, just some medical issues to be resolved.

I actual asked if someone with the same condition and a male birth certificate could compete in the women's race. Not how would they would be treated medically.

ZuttZeVootEeeVro

According to the regulations, one needs to be “legally recognized as female or intersex”. So, a person like Caster with one of the specified XY DSDs and with a male birth certificate could legally self-ID as female, or challenge to be legally identified as intersex, and yes, they could compete in the women’s race - in the included events of they lowered their testosterone, in the not included events if they did not.

And of course what one needs to be “legally recognized” as female or intersex varies from jurisdiction to jurisdiction, IAAF refers to where the athlete is competing from; they don’t have their own “legal recognition” criteria.

Thanks Femcat, in terms of “category” I meant male or female? As I thought despite the complex variations, an intersex person is one or the other (although with atypical development).

I would have said they are male with atypical development/DSD. They aren't female, just classes as female due to the genitalia appearance at birth.

Oh gosh Sunkisses that second interview is so awful, just devastating for her.

Thanks, FeministCat.

Sunkisses That video is heartbreaking

The commentary in that video even openly calls it a two tier race. Asks how this competitor feels she can continue with the ‘current rules’. The poor female competitor just can’t even find the words.

I know we are looking at rules essentially but it’s very hard not to recognise the emotional cost of all this.

Zutt my full answer was bit more detailed! Along the lines of he would be a boy at borth, identified and registered as such, lived as such and maybe, later in life, requiring some medical intervention! So wouldn't have entered any female sports!

I know we are looking at rules essentially but it’s very hard not to recognise the emotional cost of all this. That's the problem isn't it. The cut and dried science of it and the human cost of it - to all competitors!

It will be inetersting to see what calls, if any, are made to wipe more records form the history books!

www.theguardian.com/sport/blog/2017/may/02/jonathan-edwards-paula-radcliffe-erasing-old-world-records

I understand she grew up as a girl. I imagine her mom bathed her with her sisters and brother and she looked more like her sisters - why would you question it?

She was brought up by her grandmother, and was said to have played almost exclusively with boys.

So wouldn't have entered any female sports!

As femcat explained, he could if he was legally recognized as intersex.

I'm not sure why you are taking it personally I read that post as you calling me blinkered and uber woke justhadathought

Not you, but many are.....even in spite of their contradictory positions.

Why was the video of the female athlete deleted?

I was about to watch it - it makes no sense to be discussing a video that has been removed.

I feel it’s indelicate to ask but if this is so, which category does Caster officially belong to, or is it not known? Or is Caster an exceedingly rare case in that she truly does not fit into one category alone?

This is the issue,...... she's being treated as if she was XX, but is actually XY and has been through male puberty. That makes her male as far as this categorisation goes.

Yes, I think the reporting on this over the last ten years has done a huge disservice to the laypersons understanding of the case

Agreed, this and the TRA’s imposition of newspeak on the media has led to reporters not actually having the language to adequately communicate what is going on to the general public, leading to sky news having to use images to convey the actual story, leading to people yelling ‘WTF that’s a man in the women’s race at the telly’ the general public does need to be made aware that there is a serious problem here that they need to kick off about, but at the moment they’re just kicking off in an racist and misogynistic way and starting to yell ‘man’ at anybody not presenting as a petite barbie doll.

Whilst obviously people are entitled to confidentiality for their medical records, there is also a public interest issue here and the PC suppression of speech is playing into the far rights hands as they’re now positioning themselves as the only ones defending free speech. It is a mess.

And WTAF Serena Williams is being dragged into this again? It’s unfair I can’t earn millions as a sports star, just because I’m short and shit at sports. Such is life.

Thanks to everybody who listened to JV, that sounds like it would’ve made me want to rip my own ears off and start them.

The public absolutely need to hear more from Sharron and Martina and far less from extremists and corrupt individuals with all manner of agendas.

CS is XY and is male, by inference as this is still not officially known. So is male, although she has only known this she is since she was about 18 (probably), despite having female genitalia (no matter how vestigial).

My guess is that Caster is actually privately relieved to now have this knowledge, allowing her to get on with her life ( outside of sport) as she feels naturally inclined to do so. Hence the marriage to a heterosexual woman, and the feelings of comfort and ease in a stereotypical male role.

Not you, but many are.....even in spite of their contradictory positions. Further reading suggested I had misread it, but thanks for clarifying