Caster Semenya

[LilaJude]

Is anyone else outraged that sports bodies are suggesting forcing Caster Semenyer to take medication to reduce her testosterone levels?

Caster has a naturally occurring phenomenon which gives her more testosterone than the average woman, and this has been deemed a competitive advantage that needs to be medically regulated.

How is this fair? We don’t handicap other athletes for having longer legs or more muscle mass. The nature of sport is that people with exceptional bodies triumph.

It’s like these sports governing bodies are saying ‘testosterone is a man thing, women aren’t allowed it.’ But Caster does have it, naturally, and it’s just part of who she is.

I just think it’s outrageous to force a woman to medicate just because a naturally occurring condition means her body doesn’t fit with what is conventionally seen as feminine / female.

And now an intersex woman, XY/XX argument, she is XX. Says ruling draws a line - if your testosterone is above thsi level you are not woman enough... she herself has been told that on Twitter, she is a bloke!

Sharron points out that is not true, as an XX female she is female. Only XY 'females' would be held to that - interesting point of future debate I think.

And on to men taking over women's sports as they simply 'identify' as a woman.

So intersex woman acknowledges she wouldn't be affected but... erm, level playing field blah blah. Fuckwittery... Sharron says it is ridiculous - cut off a tall person's legs indeed!

Male is male, female is female, biomechanical variances are male and female. We can't all be ballerinas / gymnasts, I suppose!

Yeah cut off their. Legs. Vine showing what an idiot he is again

My reply was to this post about your opinion on this and your subsequent replies to me haven’t made sense in this context. It has nothing to do with behaviour related to loss of ability to compete.

I am at a loss to know how to reply to that!

Someone asked what would hapen if a boy had the same condition... I replied nothing much, just some medical issues to be resolved.

I went on to say that all of this furore is because CS was 'assigned female at birth'. Had she not been we wouldn't be having this discussion. She wouldn't be facing the situation she is now in. Sport wouldn't have had the debate!

The current man on JV is equally daft!

Just to clarify the CAS decision, here is the official summary, and it makes quite clear what we are talking about.
It is definitely about 46 XY Chromosomes and women do NOT have XY Chromosomes.

"the DSD covered by the Regulations arelimited to“46 XY DSD”–i.e. conditions where theaffectedindividual hasXYchromosomes. Accordingly, no individualswith XX chromosomesare subjected to any restrictions oreligibilityconditionsunder the DSD Regulations."

www.tas-cas.org/fileadmin/user_upload/CAS_Executive_Summary__5794_.pdf

Andy, you don’t need to clarify that, it was clarified and posted ages ago, but thanks

Sorry if I’m being dim, I’m still confused The brilliant Clare upthread shared that she (Clare) is what some might call an “XY” woman. Caster is also an XY woman.

My understanding is that intersex does not mean “in between”, an intersex person is always male or female, just with differences in their repro system.

I feel it’s indelicate to ask but if this is so, which category does Caster officially belong to, or is it not known? Or is Caster an exceedingly rare case in that she truly does not fit into one category alone?

This woman speaking sensibly

Accordingly, no individuals with XX chromosomesare subjected to any restrictions or eligibility conditions under the DSD Regulations." So women are women, by chormosomal defintion. That should help deal with transwomen competitors.

CS is XY and is male, by inference as this is still not officially known. So is male, although she has only known this she is since she was about 18 (probably), despite having female genitalia (no matter how vestigial).

It looks cut and dried under the new ruling, she is a man, but, due to her rare medical condition, can choose to use an otherwise banned drug to reduce her testosterone which, whilst not eradicating her advantage would reduce it a bit. Mmm! Not sure I am even vaguely OK with that, I know Datun will definitely not be!

But that ruling is what, 24 hours old and based on the findings of the data a previosu sporting commission made. So, until yesterday CS was a legal competitor competing under an interim permission, waiting for scientific findins and a legal clarification of her competitive status.

What she does now will be the test of her character, I supoose. And I don't even know if I wouldn't support her more is she continued to fight!

Oh, JV shut the fuck up! Serena Wiliams should compete as she has an unfair advantage - IT'S A NATURAL ADVANTAGE YOU FUCKWITTED MALE LISTENER!!!! within the variance of FEMALE! Which CS is not, as shown by the science the ruling was based on!

Hahaha curious. I was just thinking that

Idiot. Ffs

What’s Serena got to do with this at all. The other guy was banging on about usain bolt having to much testosterone

My understanding is that intersex does not mean “in between”, an intersex person is always male or female, just with differences in their repro system. I supect that there are a great many variances and you'd need to be an expert or perosnally affected to understand m/any of them

But it does come down to Male or Female with some having characteristics of the opposite sex. Which is why TRAs like teh very existence of intersex individuals so much!

The other guy was banging on about usain bolt having to much testosterone and very long legs! I actually shouted "That is a mechanical DISADVANTAGE in a sprinter you twat" at the radio!

2BthatUnnoticed

It’s because intersex/DSD is massively misrepresented. Firstly there are a number of conditions that have somehow fallen under this umbrella when they shouldn’t. For example, Turner Syndrome (XO) and Klinefelter Syndrome (XXY). These are chromosomal aneuplodies, ie conditions resulting from an incorrect number of chromosomes. That they happen to affect the sex chromosomes isn’t relevant. Women with Turner Syndrome are women; they aren’t a 3rd sex. Men with Klinefelter Syndrome are men, they aren’t a 3rd sex.

Then we have a number of autosomal recessive (ie inherited a gene from each parent) enzyme deficiencies that happen to affect hormones or development relevant to formation of gonads and genitalia. For example, congenital adrenal hyperplasia is a condition where an enzyme is deficient in the adrenal gland and the subsequent disruption for this causes numerous problems including virilisation of genitalia. Boys/men can have CAH. Girls/women can have CAH. They are not a 3rd sex. But girls with CAH may have genitalia that have been virilised ie made to look more male by certain hormones (androgens).

Other enzyme deficiencies include 5 alpha reductase deficiency which only affects males and causes underdeveloped external male genitalia.

Then there are receptor abnormalities like androgen insensitivity Syndrome which can be partial or complete. These are males (XY) whose bodies respond variably to androgens like testosterone. Some will respond close to the usual, some half way, etc. Some will not respond at all - CAIS. This means that their bodies look female. There is a particular phenotype with the body shape and there are no ovaries. This means that they are very “feminine” and would consider themselves to be XY women. There are rumours about certain Hollywood movie stars.

It has been confirmed by the CAS press release that CS is 46XY with a DSD. We don’t know which one but speculatively and statistically it’s likely to be partial AIS or 5 ARD.

Here it is. Conflating intersex and trans. When they are completely different.

"It looks cut and dried under the new ruling, she is a man, but, due to her rare medical condition, can choose to use an otherwise banned drug to reduce her testosterone which, whilst not eradicating her advantage would reduce it a bit. Mmm! Not sure I am even vaguely OK with that, I know Datun will definitely not be!"

No, I am not happy either.
I am definitely not happy with CS running the 5,000m, or someone else coming along with the same condition and blitzing the 100m/200m.
Dutee Chand the Indian sprinter was only 167cm and 50kg, so imagine a sprinter Caster's size or bigger 178cm and 70kg.
I am now thinking about the US high school transgender athletes.

Jeremy Vine is now discussing this on Radio 2 if anyone wants a scream....

Too late, I can advocate not tuning in whilst driving - only JV could induce road rage with someone not even on the road.

Here it is. Conflating intersex and trans. When they are completely different. Didn't take long, did it?

andy I suspect I will change my stance as I work through it a bit more. But I still have too much of the sport science lecturer flying through my brain at the moment. I am pondering all sides and looking for the interesting points of the science. This has reminded me why I loved my subject so much before teaching it destroyed that love!

Sorry and to clarify further the reason we know CS doesn’t have complete androgen insensitivity syndrome is because CS shows clear physical evidence of virilisation ie effects of androgens like testosterone - body shape, muscle mass, etc - that could not have happened if CS has CAIS like Clare. These effects were factored into the decision by the Court.

It was "paul" who gave me the rage. She's always identified as a woman, legally she is a woman. Let her complete. NO, you fucking twat.
Yes the woman who came on after him was good, clearly spelling out CS has XY chromosomes. Thank fuck.

Ah yes "Paul" I want to get his phone number and ask naughty questions about who he would and would not sleep with... after all, she is a woman if she wants to be!

I think Morag's approach of it not just being XY/XX that determines sex in people with DSDs but the role of SRY and androgen receptors as well makes sense.

In my opinion basing this on the presence or absence of a functioning SRY gene and functioning androgen receptors is the best approach. No SRY gene, definitely female. SRY gene but no functioning androgen receptors, also female (CAIS) – although it appears that these women have a marginal edge in competition, possibly due to other effects of the Y chromosome. Functioning SRY gene and significant androgen response, male.

This seems to be the thinking of the IAAF. Caster Semenya has a Y chromosome and nobody has suggested there is no SRY gene there. She also has significant androgen responsiveness – you only have to look at her to see that, and the fact that her performance allegedly drops significantly if she lowers her testosterone concentration artificially proves it. So by that metric, even though socially and legally she’s a woman, for the purposes of competition rules she is in fact biologically male.

It’s true that a virilised XX woman with excess adrenal (or ovarian) testosterone production would be in much the same position practically speaking. The CAS seems to have confirmed that such a woman would not be required to lower her testosterone, because she is a woman. But Semenya is not in that category. It’s very hard on her, because she didn’t choose to be put in this position, but the ruling is in my opinion entirely logical and entirely fair.

In effect, in this particular context, Semenya, a biological male, is being given the same exemptions as other biological males who want to compete in women’s events. She is reaping the advantage of the inclusion of transwomen in women’s sports, and being allowed to compete as a transwoman.

Sadly I think TRAs will seek to drive their bus through The CAS seems to have confirmed that such a woman would not be required to lower her testosterone, because she is a woman.

But I hold out hope that, contrary / additional to Morag's assessment, this could set the scene for easing transwomen out of women's sports. The next Olympics may be the catalyst for much more back pedalling and a quick run for more science that might overturn the TRA juggernaut.

I can hope....

I feel it’s indelicate to ask but if this is so, which category does Caster officially belong to, or is it not known? Or is Caster an exceedingly rare case in that she truly does not fit into one category alone?

I posted the “categorization” a few pages back. In order to fall under the regulations, Caster is an XY DSD who is androgen sensitive with circulating testosterone above 5nmoL.

An XY DSD like CAIS - complete androgen insensitivity syndrome - does not meet the criteria as it is...completely androgen insensitive.