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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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Caster Semenya

999 replies

LilaJude · 18/02/2019 07:50

Is anyone else outraged that sports bodies are suggesting forcing Caster Semenyer to take medication to reduce her testosterone levels?

Caster has a naturally occurring phenomenon which gives her more testosterone than the average woman, and this has been deemed a competitive advantage that needs to be medically regulated.

How is this fair? We don’t handicap other athletes for having longer legs or more muscle mass. The nature of sport is that people with exceptional bodies triumph.

It’s like these sports governing bodies are saying ‘testosterone is a man thing, women aren’t allowed it.’ But Caster does have it, naturally, and it’s just part of who she is.

I just think it’s outrageous to force a woman to medicate just because a naturally occurring condition means her body doesn’t fit with what is conventionally seen as feminine / female.

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Justhadathought · 02/05/2019 15:26

8In effect, in this particular context, Semenya, a biological male, is being given the same exemptions as other biological males who want to compete in women’s events. She is reaping the advantage of the inclusion of transwomen in women’s sports, and being allowed to compete as a transwoman.*

This is my suspicion about what is going on behind the scenes. It is all so political. They are trying to conflate the two ( inter-sex XY - and transwomen XY, and to create some kind of level playing field for men who want to compete in women's sports.

There is stil a long, long way to go with this. The consequences are going to be come even more stark and prevalent with time, as more and more men compete in women's sports.

CuriousaboutSamphire · 02/05/2019 15:29

As femcat explained, he could if he was legally recognized as intersex.

But Zutt You asked
Could someone with the exact same condition, but with a male birth certificate and bought up as a boy compete in the women's race? Is having a female birth certificate having any weight in the decision?

with a male birth certificate

CuriousaboutSamphire · 02/05/2019 15:30

The consequences are going to be come even more stark and prevalent with time, as more and more men compete in women's sports. You could almost wish they flood the Olympics and walk off with loads of medals... that would hurry things along a it! Peak a few millions worldwide!

[she says optimistically]

Justhadathought · 02/05/2019 15:35

The consequences are going to be come even more stark and prevalent with time, as more and more men compete in women's sports. You could almost wish they flood the Olympics and walk off with loads of medals... that would hurry things along a it! Peak a few millions worldwide!

Unfortunately, I think you're right - and that things are going to get a lot worse and more extreme - until they can no longer be ignored or argued away. It could well be sport that brings the whole business to a head.

OvaHere · 02/05/2019 15:35

My guess is that Caster is actually privately relieved to now have this knowledge, allowing her to get on with her life ( outside of sport) as she feels naturally inclined to do so. Hence the marriage to a heterosexual woman, and the feelings of comfort and ease in a stereotypical male role.

I also wondered this. It's why I bristle at the insistence that it's only nice and fair to use female pronouns - I understand the place that argument comes from but overall it adds to the lack of clarity for any layperson when discussing these complex DSDs and further muddies the waters.

I wouldn't be at all shocked if Caster chooses to identify as fully male post retirement. That absolutely would be their right to do so but I can't pretend it wouldn't be a bitter pill for women athletes given the circumstances.

Antibles · 02/05/2019 15:37

That video Angry. I remember it at the time.

It really is highly relevant to the FWR board why so few people publicly supported or indeed currently support the right of Lynsey Sharp, common or garden owner of XX chromosomes, to a level playing field and why she got such abuse on social media and in the press for what she did say.

Justhadathought · 02/05/2019 15:38

I wouldn't be at all shocked if Caster chooses to identify as fully male post retirement. That absolutely would be their right to do so but I can't pretend it wouldn't be a bitter pill for women athletes given the circumstances.

I think you could well be right there. The sporting side of her life is almost beyond her control now - as so many other bodies are involved and have vested interests in it.

OvaHere · 02/05/2019 15:49

The sporting side of her life is almost beyond her control now - as so many other bodies are involved and have vested interests in it.

Yes, I can't to know exactly how Caster thinks or feels in terms of personal identity but elite athletes have many parallels to huge celebrities thrust into the spotlight at a young age to the extent that your life is no longer fully your own. The pressure must be immense from all sides.

Needmoresleep · 02/05/2019 15:49

Perhaps why she does not want to artificially reduce her hormone levels. She wants to be who she is.

Justhadathought · 02/05/2019 15:54

Perhaps why she does not want to artificially reduce her hormone levels. She wants to be who she is.

Yes, after all she's been through.......she has some tough decisions ahead. Carry on competing but under the new ruling, or move over to competing in male categories; or, perhaps more likely, contest the decision - with the full weight of vested interests behind her. I can't see her moving over to men's sports now. It would almost be invalidating her success so far - and nobody wants for that to happen.

FeministCat · 02/05/2019 16:06

They can also compete against women in any of the events that do not fall under the regulations, but those are all longer distance events.

vivariumvivariumsvivaria · 02/05/2019 16:09

Who on here is a medic?

How would you feel about prescribing medication to someone who had no need for them?

Caster's testosterone is not harming her - is it ethical for a medic to give medication when there is no need other than for a sport?

Kilbranan · 02/05/2019 16:23

As a medic - it would be her choice to take the medication - not a requirement. If she doesn’t want to take it she can change to longer distances (which is what she has indicated she will do) or not compete.
It would be unethical to force her to take it regardless (obviously)
(But clearly as a GP I wouldn’t touch it with a barge pole - would need to be on specialist advice and with full disclosure of the potential health risks)
Lots of sports people do stuff to their bodies which ultimately causes them harm - look at Andy Murray. I imagine he’s probably played having had medication to mask his pain when really the more sensible thing would have been to not play

vivariumvivariumsvivaria · 02/05/2019 16:29

That's a good point about Andy Murray - I did think "come on, mate, you've got a lot of walking to do yet".

I can't see that it can it be justified, to give someone medication that isn't actually needed for their health and wellbeing just so they can comply with random competition rules.

SDTGisAnEvilWolefGenius · 02/05/2019 16:31

I agree with @Kilbranen - there is a big difference between forcing someone to take a medication, and giving them one that they are requesting, even if they may not need it for health reasons.

I suggest plastic surgery is a good example - many people have it for purely aesthetic reasons - no medical need - and surgeons have no issues with performing these operations.

RussianSpamBot · 02/05/2019 16:31

I think it's a difficult line to draw with elite athletes. They do things like have cortisone injections to mask pain in order to compete, which is arguably detrimental to them.

cupofteaandcake · 02/05/2019 16:36

I can't see CS moving over to the mens. Apologies if someone has already answered this but given CS's condition are CS's testosterone levels that of an average man? are they in the range for a man?

If they are then it's interesting because CS times are no where near the mens 800 metres best times (about 1:40).

I still can't actually believe that the organisation in charge of athletics world wide is saying it accepts competitors taking drugs to complete.

FeministCat · 02/05/2019 16:50

No one is forcing Caster to medicate. The regulations actually specifically state they do not force it.

Caster can choose:

  1. To lower testosterone levels and still compete against women in the shorter distances;
  2. Not lower testosterone and compete against men in the shorter distances;
  3. Not lower testosterone and compete against women in the longer distances;
  4. Not compete at all.
Antibles · 02/05/2019 16:50

I think it's the contraceptive pill.

FeministCat · 02/05/2019 16:51

And Caster’s testosterone does not harm them as they are XY: a male. Of course if doesn’t hurt, it has benefited them when it comes to competition.

Antibles · 02/05/2019 16:54

Not disagreeing with anyone above but healthy people take medication for various things. Anti malaria medication to take a particular foreign holiday for example.

FeministCat · 02/05/2019 16:54

I can't see that it can it be justified, to give someone medication that isn't actually needed for their health and wellbeing just so they can comply with random competition rules

No one is forcing them. They have several options available to them, including two that allow them as an XY person to still compete against women.

And “random competition rules” exist to try and keep competition fair. Like, those “random competition rules” we advocate for here that mean men aren’t eligible to compete in women’s sports. Or those “random competition rules” that mean a 20-something can’t compete in the 40+ category. Where are you going here?

Needmoresleep · 02/05/2019 16:56

So if Caster were allowed to race without lowering their testosterone, it would only be a short hop, skip and jump before other XYs, this time with external genitalia, claimed they too should race.

Not an easy line to hold at all. You have given up chromosomes and testosterone. Effectively in the territory of who big is your penis.

Not somewhere, I hope, the IOC want to go.

Whisky2014 · 02/05/2019 18:37

@CuriousaboutSamphire how is having longer legs a mechanical disadvantage to a sprinter?

DumbleDamn · 02/05/2019 20:16

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.