Caster Semenya

[LilaJude]

Is anyone else outraged that sports bodies are suggesting forcing Caster Semenyer to take medication to reduce her testosterone levels?

Caster has a naturally occurring phenomenon which gives her more testosterone than the average woman, and this has been deemed a competitive advantage that needs to be medically regulated.

How is this fair? We don’t handicap other athletes for having longer legs or more muscle mass. The nature of sport is that people with exceptional bodies triumph.

It’s like these sports governing bodies are saying ‘testosterone is a man thing, women aren’t allowed it.’ But Caster does have it, naturally, and it’s just part of who she is.

I just think it’s outrageous to force a woman to medicate just because a naturally occurring condition means her body doesn’t fit with what is conventionally seen as feminine / female.

I have never assumed CS to be a masculine female and I don’t think I’m alone. Oh! As you obviously knew her as a small child, NotBad , could you share your memories of her at, say, 5 years old?

The truth about Caster's condition has been long known, it is clear - but there has been prevarication around deciding how to act on that knowledge. That's the nub of it, you say prevarication I say initial obfuscation and then an interim period awaiting some solid science.

Can I just reiterate that I don't think the latest ruling is incorrect? I think some posters have decided that I think CS is a female and shoud be able to compete as one.

the Williams sisters etc

Nobody has ever seriously suggested that the Williams sisters are really male. that would , indeed, be racism.

Goes to show that many people don't know their arse from their elbow - too busy swallowing woke pills: being unreflective and totally uncritical.

But yes, cognitivie dissonance really does rule

It does when we are told to believe in a reality which we know, instinctively, is false.

Oh! OK. It's like that now is it?

I'll just fuck off then! Leave you to it.

But will leave you with a thought... you are wrong about nbnody suggesting the Wiliams sisters are men, Serena has faced it openly:

www.businessinsider.co.za/serena-williams-responds-to-accusations-she-was-born-a-man-2018-5

I'd post more but wouldn't want to drive more clicks to various Youtube twats!

Oh! As you obviously knew her as a small child, NotBad , could you share your memories of her at, say, 5 years old?

Perhaps you could share again how her upbringing and the potential of people viewing her as a masculine female at the age of 5 has any relevancy whatsoever because you aren’t making any sense.

Thanks for the response CuriousaboutSamphire your scientific understanding is clearly way above mine. However I do think that the line needs to be drawn in a way that is understable to and deemed fair by the average sun reader, not just academics.

With my level of understanding I do think the line needs to be XY it’s a guy, though obviously I don’t want to see tabloid spreads of women who have been told technically they’re men and I don’t mean any offence to Clare who’s twitter account I’ve always liked and I have a great deal of respect for.

The blame does need to be firmly placed at the feet of corrupt officials who to my mind have exploited people from poor countries with medical conditions, which I would again class as racism.

I hope I am not deleted for my ‘racism’ comments. Any deletion I have ever had, has been for my views on what constitutes child abuse, racism, misogyny and homophobia.

Oh! OK. It's like that now is it?
I'll just fuck off then! Leave you to it.

I assume you're talking to me?

I'm not sure why you are taking it personally, or that I suggested that you, personally, ever thought the William's sisters were really men. That some people have even suggested that, though, ( & they have) is based on racist and sexist stereotypes.

They were still women, most are moms now. If CS is biologically male then so be it. But base it on biology, not on how “ladylike” or sexist she was acting (women can be misogynists too).

Nobody has suggested her misogyny makes her a man. And yes, I think those remarks makes Caster sexist. Or can you make a few sexist remarks and be given a free pass because you are intersex?

I have been thinking about the "unfairness" of this whole thing, and it is obvious to the majority of us that the unfairness towards the majority - women - must be the key factor in making a decision.
Back in 2000, Chris Boardman was forced to retire because of chronically low T levels which led to a form of Osteoporosis. He tried to apply for medication to treat that but it was eventually turned down by the UCI.
Did he kick up a big fuss about it? No, he just accepted the decision and moved on.

www.theguardian.com/sport/story/0,3604,380917,00.html

Best of all, to my mind, is it lays the foundation for insisting that transwomen also must compete under the same restrictions....

Of reducing their testosterone down to 5 whatsits?

Because I disagree that there should be any kind of condition on men competing as women.

Perhaps you could share again how her upbringing and the potential of people viewing her as a masculine female at the age of 5 has any relevancy whatsoever because you aren’t making any sense. Oddly I think I am. I think I have explained and you just have not understood.

Put simply: innate and acquired characterstics, nature versus nurture etc etc

I understand she grew up as a girl. I imagine her mom bathed her with her sisters and brother and she looked more like her sisters - why would you question it?

I remember being bathed with my brother (as a tiny tot) so I knew how boys and girls looked, the idea I could “identify” as a boy never occurred to me.

However I do think that the line needs to be drawn in a way that is understable to and deemed fair by the average sun reader, not just academics. Hopefully this latest ruling will lead to that, Repeal It will take a while, as the details are pretty convoluted and way over my head.

Datun I don't think men could do it and live ... so it would effectively be banning them without anyone having to have the balls to say "No, you are a man!"

I'm not sure why you are taking it personally I read that post as you calling me blinkered and uber woke justhadathought

No Samphire, I’ve re-read your posts over the last 3 pages and have no idea what point you’re trying to make about CS’s upbringing, hindsight, nature vs nurture etc and how that is relevant to whether she should be allowed to compete. It’s just waffle.

Datun

"Because I disagree that there should be any kind of condition on men competing as women."

And that is what I think the majority position should be, and I cannot understand anyone who thinks otherwise.

I suggested on another forum today, that sports should be split thus:

XX Chromosome - women
XY and others - men

I would also like the ABP - Athletes Biological Passport to show this information, as well as holding updated information on Testosterone Levels.

Put simply: innate and acquired characterstics, nature versus nurture etc etc

You cannot say whether caster’s “early male traits” are nature vs. Nurture. People are quick to judge here that behaving like a boy= biological male. Caster grew up in SA where the culture is very different to ours. Mind you, even in this country, i was a very strong child and definitely felt I adopted boyish behaviours as life was easier as a “tomboy”, rather than constantly being told my activities “weren’t ladylike” or I should play more gently with other girls because I “didn’t know my own strength”. It was socially easier to play with boys and look down on girls as soft weaklings.

I am old enough to remember Fatima Whitbread and very similar discussions around her sex.

Jess they suggested her misogyny explains the level of negativity towards her.

Ultimately though she has abided by the rules... I don’t really get why the criticism is towards her, as opposed to the governing body or SA sporting bodies.

I like the idea of two categories, xx-women and an open category

Datun I don't think men could do it and live ... so it would effectively be banning them without anyone having to have the balls to say "No, you are a man!"

I'm a little confused about that comment. A man reducing their testosterone to the level required of CS wouldn't live?

And that is what I think the majority position should be, and I cannot understand anyone who thinks otherwise.

I suggested on another forum today, that sports should be split thus:

XX Chromosome - women
XY and others - men

Agreed.

Because I disagree that there should be any kind of condition on men competing as women.

Absolutely. Certain TRAs have jumped on the fact that “T*rfs” want to force CS to take drugs to alter her body, and whining about the hypocrisy of it all. No one is forcing CS or demanding this of her for a start. But I do not believe she should suppress her testosterone. And I do not believe she should be eligible to race against women. Race against men, race in one of the current events not covered or don’t race.

You cannot say whether caster’s “early male traits” are nature vs. Nurture. That's not quite what I meant, in context. She was told she was she.... she was treated as she by =family, friends... she didn't feel like 'she'... began not to act like she.... didn't know why until much, much later. She was nurtured as she, was in fact he. It doesn't matter what society you live in, they all have their own versions of masculine and feminine, some are very different from ours, but they are still male : female.

And that is why I think this is a dangerous ground to tread upon, it will encourage TRAs to leap even more vigorusly upon the intersex debate.

NotBad you may have missed the discussion about what would be fair... my point was that it is not necessarly 'fair' to castigate CS for her behaviour when confronted with losing her ability to compete. Who would lose their livelihood without demur? Especially when it was because of something they had no control over and was a personal source of confusion.

Jeremy Vine is now discussing this on Radio 2 if anyone wants a scream....

Your post earlier said this:

”Could someone with the exact same condition, but with a male birth certificate and bought up as a boy compete in the women's race? Is having a female birth certificate having any weight in the decision?”

Is that relevant? As in, if a boy was recognised/assigned as a boy and lived, acted as a boy and later found they had a medical issue, they would just have that medical issue looked at, regardless of their chosen career.

But CS was 'assigned female at birth' and all this stems from that! All of the physical, physiological, psychological and behavioural conjecture stems from that.

My reply was to this post about your opinion on this and your subsequent replies to me haven’t made sense in this context. It has nothing to do with behaviour related to loss of ability to compete.

Fuck! Don't.

His opening statement is just ridiculous, South Africa, apartheid etc.

Sharron Davis now talking sense - 46XY, male leves of testosterone etc.