Caster Semenya

[LilaJude]

Is anyone else outraged that sports bodies are suggesting forcing Caster Semenyer to take medication to reduce her testosterone levels?

Caster has a naturally occurring phenomenon which gives her more testosterone than the average woman, and this has been deemed a competitive advantage that needs to be medically regulated.

How is this fair? We don’t handicap other athletes for having longer legs or more muscle mass. The nature of sport is that people with exceptional bodies triumph.

It’s like these sports governing bodies are saying ‘testosterone is a man thing, women aren’t allowed it.’ But Caster does have it, naturally, and it’s just part of who she is.

I just think it’s outrageous to force a woman to medicate just because a naturally occurring condition means her body doesn’t fit with what is conventionally seen as feminine / female.

NotBadConsidering

"Marion Jones never tested positive."

Neither did Carl Lewis or Lance Armstrong - until it came out much later, after all the gold medals and grand tours, because they were all covered up at the time, either by the sport's governing bodies or UST&F.

Yes Andy, that was my point about Flo Jo.

I actually think this could have been dealt with more quickly if there hadn't been so much silencing of people by playing the race card.

Including use of the red herring accusation that to say CS looks masculine is to racistly say that black woman look more like men. When people were simply observing the effect of virilisation in a given individual.

It wasn't a good decision. They decided to compromise women's sports until there was clear evidence that it was unfair.

That is not good for women's sport going into to the future. We should be confident that any rulings are fair for all women in sport before they are implemented.

CuriousaboutSamphire

"Marion Jones, well circumstantial evidence alone condemns her, in my mind. I am not sure how she managed it but her team were very, very good!"

She admitted it during the BALCO enquiry, she admitted doping and went to prison for lying to the court.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marion_Jones#Use_of_illicit_performance-enhancing_drugs

But CS was 'assigned female at birth' and all this stems from that! All of the physical, physiological, psychological and behavioural conjecture stems from that.

This isn’t true about the physical part.

Let’s imagine two babies born with 5 alpha reductase deficiency. One of those has the condition recognised at birth, is correctly identified as being male with an enzyme deficiency and raised as such. The other has the condition missed and is thought to be a girl and is raised as such. Both become runners. Both have the same physical attributes. But one competes as a male against other males, but one competes as male against females. One has no advantage in terms of sex against their competitors because they’ve all gone through the same process. The other has advantages of male sex over their female competitors which cannot be matched. Everything else is immaterial.

We are saying that CS must have always been male as that is how she identified.And yet transwomen who claim the same are told no...

For most intents and purposes Caster was/is always biologically male - but also happened to identify as such as well - especially after puberty.When her skeleton is dug up as is the new 'old cliche' - I'm assuming it will be male.

Transwomen are biological males who claim to identify as female souls

To those saying Caster has no fair place to compete: of course they do.

We know Caster has an XY DSD that makes them sensitive to androgens, because one must have one of them and have circulating testosterone above 5nmo/L to be captured by the IAAF regulations. Though I accept their external male genitalia did not develop, this does not make them woman.

They do not have CAIS. Red herring argument as those with CAIS would not be captured by the definitions and regulations. They specifically have to be androgen sensitive, at least partially.

I think it would greatly help if people went and actually read the IAAF regulations because they specifically allow XY DSDs who are “legally female” or “intersex” but with an XY DSD be included in the female category - note nothing about biologically female. Those saying Caster has female “roots” or is XX - no, if they were XX female they would not be captured by the eligibility guidelines, the one except being if they had ovotestes

As someone with an XY DSD with circulating hormones above 5nmoL. They can:

1. Lower their testosterone
2. Compete with men
3. Compete against women in one of the events not captured by the regulations (such as the 5,000m)
4. Like 99% of us, not be eligible to compete on an international level

Here, I have copied the pertinent part of the regulations:

(a) A Relevant Athlete is an athlete who meets each of the following three criteria:

(i) she has one of the following DSDs:

(A) 5α-reductase type 2 deficiency;

(B) partial androgen insensitivity syndrome (PAIS);

(C) 17β-hydroxysteroid dehydrogenase type 3 (17β- HSD3) deficiency;

(D) ovotesticular DSD; or

(E) any other genetic disorder involving disordered gonadal steroidogenesis; and

(ii) as a result, she has circulating testosterone levels in blood of five (5) nmol/L or above; and

(iii) she has sufficient androgen sensitivity for those levels of testosterone to have a material androgenising effect

(b) Restricted Events are 400m races, 400m hurdles races, 800m races, 1500m races, one mile races, and all other Track Events over distances between 400m and one mile (inclusive), whether run alone or as part of a relay event or a Combined Event.

For clarity, as used in these Regulations, the term 'Restricted Event' encompasses any Combined Event that includes one or more Restricted Events, so that an athlete who is eligible under these Regulations to compete in Restricted Events is also eligible to compete in Combined Events that include Restricted Events; while an athlete who is ineligible to compete in Restricted Events is also ineligible to compete in Combined Events that include Restricted Events.

2.3 To be eligible to compete in the female classification in a Restricted Event at an International Competition, or to set a World Record in a competition that is not an International Competition, a Relevant Athlete must meet each of the following conditions (the Eligibility Conditions):

(a) she must be recognised at law as either as female or as intersex (or equivalent);

(b) she must reduce her blood testosterone level to below five (5) nmol/L8 for a continuous period of at least six months (e.g., by use of hormonal contraceptives); and

[Note: as a special transitional provision, a Relevant Athlete who reduces her blood testosterone to below five (5) nmol/L for a continuous period starting from 8 May 2019 to 28 September 2019 will be deemed to have met this eligibility condition to compete in the female classification in a Restricted Event at the IAAF World Athletics Championships, Doha 2019.]

(c) thereafter she must maintain her blood testosterone level below five (5) nmol/L continuously (i.e., whether she is in competition or out of competition) for so long as she wishes to maintain eligibility to compete in the female classification in Restricted Events at International Competitions (or to set a World Record in a Restricted Event at a competition that is not an International Competition).

2.4 For the avoidance of doubt, there are no other special conditions that a Relevant Athlete must satisfy in order to participate in the female classification in a Restricted Event at an International Competition (or to set a World Record in a Restricted Event at a competition that is not an International Competition). In particular, surgical anatomical changes are not required in any circumstances.

2.5 For the avoidance of doubt, no athlete will be forced to undergo any assessment and/or treatment under these Regulations. It is the athlete's responsibility, in close consultation with her medical team, to decide whether or not to proceed with any assessment and/or treatment.

This isn’t true about the physical part. With hindsight, knowing something that was not known at the time!

For most intents and purposes Caster was/is always biologically male - but also happened to identify as such as well - especially after puberty. Again, in hindsight, knowing something not known earlier.

I think there is a cross purpose at work there:

1. The reality as we now know it
2. The reality as known during CSs childhood

Add to that the lack of research into athletes with her specific condition then there is nothing else that could really have been done. Her status was queried, a lack of solid research meant there was a delay whilst it was commissioned, results came in, decision made.

Could someone with the exact same condition, but with a male birth certificate and bought up as a boy compete in the women's race? Is having a female birth certificate having any weight in the decision?

It seems to me that the fact of female birth certificate is totally at the centre of the controversy.

A few people I have spoken with over the last day or so are assuming Caster is 'a woman wronged' - purely on the bass of the 'she' pronoun - and precious little other information - given the media's lack of interrogation and complicity.*

The racism this is provoking does need to be challenged. Since this has come out I’ve seen some appalling things online, calling the Williams sisters ‘men’ and demanding they are tested. One of them has given birth ffs!

I really think a blood test/cheek swab of all who compete to establish chromosomes should be mandatory. Leaving sex/gender testing until after the general public has started kicking off and shouting about who looks like a ‘man’ is appalling and is provoking racism.

Interesting whoever the pp was who said that actually the correct decisions were made in 2009 and that they have led to useful research, I’m going to have a think about that POV.

With hindsight, knowing something that was not known at the time!

What the hell difference does that make? Not known when?
It doesn’t matter what was known when or how she was raised or any of that, the fact that she has always been male and has the physical advantages of being male are all that matters. I really don’t know what you’re getting at.

*I think there is a cross purpose at work there:

1. The reality as we now know it
2. The reality as known during CSs childhood*

The reality was always there - it was just obscured. Had the reality been known Caster's life may well have been very different, even if still quite difficult - due to being a man without a penis.

I really think a blood test/cheek swab of all who compete to establish chromosomes should be mandatory that was done form the late 60s until 1996. The tests weren't reliable, science moved too fast/slow, depending on how you look at it.

The newer tests, levels in the new ruling will be included in all doping tests. I suspect the idea is to not ever have to say "But honey, you are a man" thus taking care not to hurt the feelings of transwomen - that is assuming they are held to the same levels of testosterone etc.

Interesting whoever the pp was who said that actually the correct decisions were made in 2009 and that they have led to useful research, I’m going to have a think about that POV. Twas me. I am more than happy to hold my hand up and say that I think that from a sport science perspective. It was obviously unfair on the women competing in the interim. But there had to be some sort of decison made... this way there is a scientific foundation that cannot be overruled - unless by new science!

Best of all, to my mind, is it lays the foundation for insisting that transwomen also must compete under the same restrictions....

The racism this is provoking does need to be challenged. Since this has come out I’ve seen some appalling things online, calling the Williams sisters ‘men’ and demanding they are tested. One of them has given birth ffs!

Yes, stereotypes around women's physicality and black women's physicality, in particular. The William's sisters are female and look female, in spite of being taller than average and in Serena's case very muscular. Neither of the women look like men - just because they are not slender or pocket-sized and are physically powerful ( for women).

The reality was always there knew I had phrased that badly as I pressed Post - reality as it was understood at the time! Sorry.

NotBad I was perfectly clear (OK poorly phrased)

As far as was initially understood, known CS was a very mascuine female, like Fatima Whitbred and very many other women in sport (lots in sport as being so confers a decent advanatge in many sports, so it is essentially self selecting). After puberty, after the first tranche of tests different decisions were made. I believe that, from a scientific perspective, they were the right decisioons, they led to this latest ruling. I acknowledge individuals would have been poorly served, CS included, by the posturings of various organisation. But what else was to be done? Ban a cohort of athletes based on what? How they look with no underpinning science? Really?

Best of all, to my mind, is it lays the foundation for insisting that transwomen also must compete under the same restrictions....

Yes, this is my suspicion. There are other motives and considerations and political manoeuvring going on behind the scenes, I'm sure - especially given the approach of the Olympics at which a number of transwomen will be competing in women's competitions.

I have just come across this article, which details an adolescent, brought up as a female, with I assume the same syndrome as CS. - 5a reductase deficiency with 46XY.

"Individuals who have been raised as female manifest characteristics of virilisation at puberty, including deepening of the vocal tone, phallus enlargement, scrotal hyperpigmentation and increased muscle mass."

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5488825/

Agree Zutt and Just about the birth certificate. I assume this would not be happening for a male child correctly diagnosed and therefore given legal sex commensurate with their biological sex.

Various commentators I have heard over the past 24 hours seem to be working on a totally uncritical assumption that Caster is chromosomally female but just seems to produce magical amounts of testosterone for a biological female. Instead of thinking hmm, maybe a person who naturally produces that much testosterone is in fact...male?

Genuine question: which (if any) 46XX DSD females produce 10+ n/mol testosterone?

The reality was always there knew I had phrased that badly as I pressed Post - reality as it was understood at the time! Sorry.

Goes to show, though, that people's instincts were/can be right all along. Everyone knew 'in their bones' that Caster was a boy - even though they were told the reality was different. Total cognitive dissonance.

As far as was initially understood, known CS was a very mascuine female

I have never assumed CS to be a masculine female and I don’t think I’m alone.

Ban a cohort of athletes based on what? How they look with no underpinning science? Really?

Nobody is being banned from competing in sport. This is about competing in the right category.

The truth about Caster's condition has been long known, it is clear - but there has been prevarication around deciding how to act on that knowledge.

Goes to show, though, that people's instincts were/can be right all along Or not, if you consider Fatima Whitbred, the Williams sisters etc. There are so many female atheltes who grow masculine jaw line due to the nature of their training, so many of them would be seen to be men - see the Peak Sherpa Cyclist's accusations about Sharron Davies for example!

On a social level that might be considered acceptable but scientifically? In my time I have helped train some very pretty girls into quite masculine looking women. It is very common in some sports. They wouldn't be elite competitors if they didn't achieve that.

But yes, cognitivie dissonance really does rule sometimes

Jess are you serious? Declaring someone “a sexist pig” based on a few unpleasant remarks seems harsh.

Some people are projecting their own culturally specific “How Women Act” judgements and deciding CS “always identified as male” based on a few snippets.

I grew up in a poor area (not as poor as Caster). There was a small cohort of girls (Vagina / boob girls) who looked, acted and spoke like CS in that video, even down to dissing other women.

They were still women, most are moms now. If CS is biologically male then so be it. But base it on biology, not on how “ladylike” or sexist she was acting (women can be misogynists too).