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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Caster Semenya

999 replies

LilaJude · 18/02/2019 07:50

Is anyone else outraged that sports bodies are suggesting forcing Caster Semenyer to take medication to reduce her testosterone levels?

Caster has a naturally occurring phenomenon which gives her more testosterone than the average woman, and this has been deemed a competitive advantage that needs to be medically regulated.

How is this fair? We don’t handicap other athletes for having longer legs or more muscle mass. The nature of sport is that people with exceptional bodies triumph.

It’s like these sports governing bodies are saying ‘testosterone is a man thing, women aren’t allowed it.’ But Caster does have it, naturally, and it’s just part of who she is.

I just think it’s outrageous to force a woman to medicate just because a naturally occurring condition means her body doesn’t fit with what is conventionally seen as feminine / female.

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CuriousaboutSamphire · 02/05/2019 10:34

TBF I have known women like this, but they usually grow more circumspect, because life etc. Yes, we're usually called Tomboys! I know a few adult women like that, heterosexual and very masculine. Like me they don't always suffer 'pink fluffiness' well!

We seem to be discussing those pesky stereotypes again!

Justhadathought · 02/05/2019 10:34

Reading much of what has been written today has been horrible, we have no choice but to exist in these bodies, with all the discrimination, stigma and from what I’ve seen today, disgust & ridicule. For me, it would never have been safe or appropriate for me to compete with men - and if some are really arguing to ban people like me as non-women, what else will I be excluded from?

Catser Semenya's profile is different, though.Caster has developed physically as a male, and has no uterus or ovaries, but internalised testes instead.

The issue here is about sport and fairness in women's sport, not about how one 'identifies' in life. It would appear that although 'assigned' female at birth, Caster has always identified as male.

JessicaWakefieldSV · 02/05/2019 10:38

We seem to be discussing those pesky stereotypes again!

No we’re not. You’re just very keen to reinforce your opinion of others on this thread as mean and nasty women so you’re framing her misogyny and othering of girls as ‘just being a tomboy’. Well I was a tomboy too, referred to as a ‘little fella’ in my early years and I still considered myself a girl. I did not ever refer to other girls as Caster has done, because I’m not a misogynist. Caster should be called out for the misogyny regardless of any other issues. Stop trying to tell us what we see and hear is something else.

CuriousaboutSamphire · 02/05/2019 10:38

It would appear that although 'assigned' female at birth, Caster has always identified as male I think we need to be careful here.

We are saying that CS must have always been male as that is how she identified.

And yet transwomen who claim the same are told no...

... TRAs will use such statements, we know they will!

SophoclesTheFox · 02/05/2019 10:38

Yes, that’s why the video is shocking. In my limited understanding of the issue, one of the foundational elements of my sympathy for caster’s predicament has been that outside of the phenomenal athletic ability, Caster is your typical, everyday average woman, who has struggled to be accepted as a woman, and who wants to be seen and treated “as a woman” (yes I know, whatever that actually means).

That’s not what I see when I watch that video. It makes it hard to understand what it is about Caster that I’m sticking up for, because clearly she’s very comfortable presenting in a very masculine way.

It’s very difficult to pin down, because I’d be the first to tell someone to fuck off for calling Serena Williams too masculine.

The video gives me cognitive dissonance, is what I’m saying.

JessicaWakefieldSV · 02/05/2019 10:39

Sako’s English was fluent but rough, and he frequently referred to Semenya as “he.” “Caster was very free when he is in the male company,” Sako said. “I remember one day I asked her, ‘Why are you always in the company of men?’ He said, ‘No, man, I don’t have something to say to girls, they talks nonsense. They are always out of order.’

This is not a comment made because she is a ‘tomboy’, it’s misogyny. I really detest the double standards here.

CuriousaboutSamphire · 02/05/2019 10:39

Jessica Once, plainly... just stop! I am not saying anything like that which you are inferring.

JessicaWakefieldSV · 02/05/2019 10:40

I am not saying anything like that which you are inferring.
Yeah you are.

Datun · 02/05/2019 10:42

But it still doesn't change the need for the new ruling to be based on rigorous research. Imagine if they had found some other mechanism, no advantage and that, like Fatima Whitbred etc, CS was just one form of a very masculine woman? That was always a slim possibility!

Which I would have been fine with! Personally. It's not beyond the realms of possibility that someone is just really, really that good. The issue of searching other people out, by using some kind of criteria wouldn't exist.

I think most people are on the same page. One main disagreement is over Caster's culpability or lack of it.

And that is again, only speculation, because of the esoteric nature of the entire situation.

CuriousaboutSamphire · 02/05/2019 10:42

Oddly, being the one thinking and posting those things, I feel quite happy to assert that I am not.

You are misunderstanding, misinterpreting!

But hey! Let's not disrupt an interesting thread becasue of it!

CuriousaboutSamphire · 02/05/2019 10:43

I think most people are on the same page. One main disagreement is over Caster's culpability or lack of it.

And that is again, only speculation, because of the esoteric nature of the entire situation.

I'd say that's it in a nutshell!

Justhadathought · 02/05/2019 10:45

It really doesn't matter how you view CS, how masculine she now appears. Her roots are female, that is how she was born and all those TRA words spring up: identified at birth etc etc again I blush

That is not the truth at all. Whether discovered or diagnosed or not - as is the case, until quite a lot older - Caster always had the condition that she now has ( internal testes/male gonads leading to male puberty). We are calling her she, because due to ambiguous external female genitalia and the lack of a penis, she was identified as a girl and she pronouns were then used.

However, given some research it is clear that she never really identified as a girl even though she continued to call herself a girl, as she grew to display very clear masculine features and physicality. A deeply confusing situation for everyone - including, of course herself.

Justhadathought · 02/05/2019 10:47

And that is again, only speculation, because of the esoteric nature of the entire situation.

My feeling is that the truth is being obscured, hence all of the conflicting accounts and second guessing. I suspect that the truth has been obscured because it suited some parties to obscure it. I also suspect that the obfuscation will continue for the same reasons.

CuriousaboutSamphire · 02/05/2019 10:50

A deeply confusing situation for everyone - including, of course herself. Yes! Feeling one thing, told another. Looking somewhere in the middle for her early life. Her roots, earliest socialisation are female. As she grew up and now, as an adult with more knowledge, more experience, she has changed (still she as we have no idea what the realities of her medical condition are, just conjecture based on the ruling) - that is self evident.

But as an individual she is only the impetus for the additional, specific research. In that sense she is largely irrelevant in the long run! It makes little sense to be so focussed on her when the implications of the ruling are quite far reaching!

Justhadathought · 02/05/2019 10:52

Caster's own assertion that they don't relate to women at all (because they're soft, talk nonsense, etc)

Due to Caster's identification and social positioning as a boy ( in spite of lack of penis and the 'she' pronoun assigned), she has clearly developed a hyper masculinity of sorts as a compensation. the way she talks about girls and women sounds very stereotypical for her society.

CuriousaboutSamphire · 02/05/2019 10:53

I also suspect that the obfuscation will continue for the same reasons. One of those reasons will be her expectations of confidentiality.

Something earlier governing bodies both used and abused and was a major part of the recommendation for further research, ending with this ruling!

SophoclesTheFox · 02/05/2019 10:54

I agree about the value of obfuscation, Justathought

Sport is riddled with grey areas that lend themselves well to boundary pushing, whether it’s technological advantages in cycling or swimming, or supplementation, or whatever.

remember for example when Pistorius was famous for push8ng the boundaries of what benefit he was or was not able to accrue from his prostheses for it to be acceptable for him to compete in able-bodied competitions.

People pushing the boundaries prefer the grey areas to remain, because when the authorities confirm what’s acceptable, then everyone is on a level playing field again.

EweSurname · 02/05/2019 10:54

I found this interesting but can't vouch for the science

twitter.com/BDimyon/status/1123878574791057408

Justhadathought · 02/05/2019 10:57

Her roots, earliest socialisation are female

As far as I can see her early socialisation was to be brought up amongst boys - that it was has been said in interviews. I wouldn't say her "roots are female", though. Clearly, she was teased because she looked and behaved like a boy - and I don't think she had much chance or space to really ever identify as a girl - even though she was told she was one.

I mentioned earlier the young boy accidentally castrated during circumcision that went on to be brought up as a girl. The importance and centrality of the penis in definitions of manhood cannot be over-stated.

EweSurname · 02/05/2019 10:57

The comment in full:

Morag says:
1st May 2019 at 10:35 pm
I don’t really agree with some of this. I think the essential point that’s being missed is that the CAS has in effect determined Semenya to be biologically male, on the grounds that she has both a functional SRY gene and significant androgen response. I find myself in agreement with this, having independently come to the same conclusion in recent weeks.

How do we define the binary of sex in the face of the constant “but teh intersex!” whine from the TRA lobby? They’re right that a simply XY/XX split is insufficiently discriminative in that it throws up some very clear misallocations. We need a better measure.

In my opinion basing this on the presence or absence of a functioning SRY gene and functioning androgen receptors is the best approach. No SRY gene, definitely female. SRY gene but no functioning androgen receptors, also female (CAIS) – although it appears that these women have a marginal edge in competition, possibly due to other effects of the Y chromosome. Functioning SRY gene and significant androgen response, male.

This seems to be the thinking of the IAAF. Caster Semenya has a Y chromosome and nobody has suggested there is no SRY gene there. She also has significant androgen responsiveness – you only have to look at her to see that, and the fact that her performance allegedly drops significantly if she lowers her testosterone concentration artificially proves it. So by that metric, even though socially and legally she’s a woman, for the purposes of competition rules she is in fact biologically male.

It’s true that a virilised XX woman with excess adrenal (or ovarian) testosterone production would be in much the same position practically speaking. The CAS seems to have confirmed that such a woman would not be required to lower her testosterone, because she is a woman. But Semenya is not in that category. It’s very hard on her, because she didn’t choose to be put in this position, but the ruling is in my opinion entirely logical and entirely fair.

In effect, in this particular context, Semenya, a biological male, is being given the same exemptions as other biological males who want to compete in women’s events. She is reaping the advantage of the inclusion of transwomen in women’s sports, and being allowed to compete as a transwoman.

The case is full of paradoxes. In trans-speak Semenya would be considered to be “cis”, because her gender identity matches the identity she was “asssigned at birth”. But in fact both of these identities are discordant with the actual biological sex of her body. You might say she is an “afab transwoman”!

It’s obvious she has always been sensitive about this. She gets very upset if anyone accuses her of being a man. But she and her advisors must have known she was XY with what appears to be PAIS. Her actual genotype has been kept secret for many years. Surely it would have been better for her if this case had never been brought. If she’d just accepted the ruling and reduced her testosterone she could have continued to keep her genotype secret. Now, however, her XY genotype is public knowledge, and the unkind people who called her a man may consider themselves vindicated.

I sadly fear the SA athletics authorities were far too keen to have the star runner on their team and didn’t want her pulled back by having to lower her testosterone. They pulled the “racist” card and the “discrimination” card and tried to browbeat the CAS. It didn’t work, and the principle victim of all this is poor Caster Semenya, who must be suffering horribly at present.

But the victory has been for the biological sex essentialists. Semenya is in the category of biological male and has to compete under the rules that govern biological males in women’s sports. A biological female with a similar endocrinological advantage will not be penalised because she is a bona fide female. I’m very encouraged by this.

Yoursilentface · 02/05/2019 10:59

I'm really confused by this.

So the leaked info showed that Caster has xy chromosome and undesended testicles not ovaries.

So this may be over simplifying it, but is she not a man lacking a penis? If a boy is born with undesended testicles, they don't say, you can lop of the penis and make a girl, they pull out the testicles.

It seems to me that due to a lack of medical care, Caster was raised a girl when she is really a man. So as mean as it may seem, she should be competing against men or not at all. Otherwise any bloke could just claim he was raised as a girl, and take testosterone suppressants to be able to compete against women, even though he would retain physical advantages.

andyoldlabour · 02/05/2019 11:00

"I don’t think she cheated, I’ve not seen many comments here along that line either. I do think she knew she had an unfair advantage after a certain point, especially as when she did reduce her T she didn’t do as well, and I think knowing that and pursuing this anyway is wrong & unfair to women."

The above best sums up my feelings about the whole case, and I think the ones who are really to blame, are the sports governing bodies - IAAF and IOC, for ignoring the obvious back in 2009, and then bad decision making with regard to policy up to date.
I also think the South African athletics body have been pretty shameless with their comments recently, which have shown a win at all costs attitude, and don't give a second thought for the athletes deprived of victory along the way.

ZuttZeVootEeeVro · 02/05/2019 11:01

Could someone with the exact same condition, but with a male birth certificate and bought up as a boy compete in the women's race? Is having a female birth certificate having any weight in the decision?

CuriousaboutSamphire · 02/05/2019 11:09

Could someone with the exact same condition, but with a male birth certificate and bought up as a boy compete in the women's race? Is having a female birth certificate having any weight in the decision? Is that relevant? As in, if a boy was recognised/assigned as a boy and lived, acted as a boy and later found they had a medical issue, they would just have that medical issue looked at, regardless of their chosen career.

But CS was 'assigned female at birth' and all this stems from that! All of the physical, physiological, psychological and behavioural conjecture stems from that.

CuriousaboutSamphire · 02/05/2019 11:12

ignoring the obvious back in 2009, and then bad decision making with regard to policy up to date. But they made a reaally good, interim decision. That decision meant that some very specific research was done, leading to this ruling.

Not saying that there wasn't corruption or any bad decsion making. But the decision to place all decision regarding hyperandrogeny and sporting benefits on hold until more was known about the real, measurable sporting advantages was a good one - in the long run.

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