Caster Semenya

[LilaJude]

Is anyone else outraged that sports bodies are suggesting forcing Caster Semenyer to take medication to reduce her testosterone levels?

Caster has a naturally occurring phenomenon which gives her more testosterone than the average woman, and this has been deemed a competitive advantage that needs to be medically regulated.

How is this fair? We don’t handicap other athletes for having longer legs or more muscle mass. The nature of sport is that people with exceptional bodies triumph.

It’s like these sports governing bodies are saying ‘testosterone is a man thing, women aren’t allowed it.’ But Caster does have it, naturally, and it’s just part of who she is.

I just think it’s outrageous to force a woman to medicate just because a naturally occurring condition means her body doesn’t fit with what is conventionally seen as feminine / female.

Marion Jones was convicted though. Interestingly her case was mentioned in that video linked on here about how you should never talk to the police.

Datun that's about it!

But I prefer to keep my optimistic, ex science lecturer head on and hope that this and thenext round of research will be far more supportive of women's sport!

Even knowing that the big money and even bigger male authority egos will probably slow it down!

The female world record holder of 800m is Jarmila Kratochvilova.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jarmila_Kratochv%C3%ADlov%C3%A1

Now the ruling has been made, Caster will never break it.

Clare, you are right there are no winners or losers in this. It's a disappointing decision in my opinion. And NOTHING, to do with trans athletes.

Until she started winning everything and it became clear that anyone with the same condition would do the same. And therefore these xy women are being sought by unscrupulous authorities everywhere.

Correct. Always bear in mind that elite sport is a cesspit of money and cheating. No different when DSDs are involved. Blame should go structurally on this basis, not personally, where the "cheat" is also often the exploited.

Marion Jones was convicted though. Yes, because she admitted doping and her part in a fraud case. They, Jones, her coach and husband, were utterly bereft of morals!

I dunno Jessica it’s admirable that you would end your career. But if I came from acute rural poverty, and was single handedly raising my family out of it, I’m not sure I would be so noble.

CS followed the rules, did the tests, the authorities made rulings at various times. She’s appealed the decision, which the process allows for.

So I don’t really get the anger directed at her instead of the governing body for not sorting it earlier.

A friend of mine has a photographic memory (huge advantage through law school) and is now a barrister with a great win/lose rate. He had an “unfair advantage” but if the Bar Association wanted him to take drugs to even things out? He’d be appealing.

What misogyny? I googled but just got pages of CS being the target of it.

This is the Wiki page on the 800m world record holders.

Note: The inference is that the men are more competitive than the women, constantly breaking through the barrier.

Women on the other hand, well these records hold for a very long time, indicating that women aren't really competitive at all.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/800_metres

I’m learning so much from this thread, thank you all.

I can understand caster’s desire to keep her medical details to herself, she has a reasonable expectation of privacy for such things.

But by a process of exclusion, if the decision can only be appealed by someone with 46, XY, then that must be the disorder/condition that she has, mustn’t it? There’s no prurient speculation in that, just a clarification of to whom the ruling applies. It might be distressing to the individuals involved, but if we need to get this specific about detail to protect the integrity of sport, then that is part and parcel of competing at that level.

I also don’t think she’s a cheat as she’s complied with the rules as they are. They’ve now changed, but I don’t see the benefit in any retrospective action, even though this disadvantages female athletes who would otherwise have achieved greater things had Caster not been competing.

The important thing is what happens going forward, that the rules are as clear as they can be.

And therefore these xy women are being sought by unscrupulous authorities everywhere.

Indeed. The sports governing bodies are now very aware that unless this ruling is upheld, women's sports face being dominated by people with conditions like Semenya's and men identifying as women (who will most likely knock the people with conditions like Semenya's out of the park).

What misogyny? I googled but just got pages of CS being the target of it.

RTFT

Correct. Always bear in mind that elite sport is a cesspit of money and cheating. No different when DSDs are involved. Blame should go structurally on this basis, not personally, where the "cheat" is also often the exploited.

Definitely this. Where there is money to be made, there will be people who know how to make it.

The sports authorities have to balance the athlete's needs with this and those of the other athletes along with all the competing pressures on them to manipulate the system and come out with something that looks fair overall.

It should not be seen as a reflection or judgement on Caster as a person.

What misogyny? The misogyny of finding her female peers boring, manspreading and being quite masculine and, obviously, wanting to rob women of their sporting achievements - I think that was it!

No nuances there... no sirree!

My final thoughts on this are that women are held up to much more scrutiny than men through all walks of life, that we can agree. This microscopic scrutiny is bound to have an effect on performance targets, especially when it comes to elite female sports.

My final thoughts on this are that women are held up to much more scrutiny than men through all walks of life, that we can agree.

Well, that was my next question.

Is there a DSD that men are born with which gives them a massive physical advantage over men without one?

Datun

No.

Is there a DSD that men are born with which gives them a massive physical advantage over men without one? Probably, but that would be something to admire, aspire to, wouldn't it?

Think Arnie + The Rock + any other overly muscled macho man and then add successful doping!

Arguably, diphallia...

Ah yes! My favourite Triv Pursuit question - diphallic terata. Stunned the ILs on first meeting them by knowing the answer to that one!

For those too lazy to RTFT and those misrepresenting:

Sako’s English was fluent but rough, and he frequently referred to Semenya as “he.” “Caster was very free when he is in the male company,” Sako said. “I remember one day I asked her, ‘Why are you always in the company of men?’ He said, ‘No, man, I don’t have something to say to girls, they talks nonsense. They are always out of order.’

Caster referred to their childhood always being spent with boys, because girls are boring, when asked why: they’re soft.

Is there a DSD that men are born with which gives them a massive physical advantage over men without one?

Is there a normal range of testosterone which men must fall into? Or is that just women.

What if Michael Johnson had a naturally occurring testosterone level twice that of his peers?

No.

I thought there couldn't be. I wonder what would happen if there was? One thing's for sure - I bet ten whole years wouldn't go by with that particular person winning everything.

And I do think you can look at this from one of two ways.

The reason why people are shocked at that video is that you suddenly see caster as a man, not a woman. It does change your perspective. Including the apparent lack of inner conflict and Caster's own assertion that they don't relate to women at all (because they're soft, talk nonsense, etc).

The narrative that Caster has struggled their whole life, as a woman with a masculinised body, to be taken seriously as a woman, seems suddenly duplicitous.

The reason why people are shocked at that video is that you suddenly see caster as a man, not a woman. It does change your perspective. Including the apparent lack of inner conflict and Caster's own assertion that they don't relate to women at all (because they're soft, talk nonsense, etc).

The narrative that Caster has struggled their whole life, as a woman with a masculinised body, to be taken seriously as a woman, seems suddenly duplicitous.

Yes this ^

The narrative that Caster has struggled their whole life, as a woman with a masculinised body, to be taken seriously as a woman, seems suddenly duplicitous. I'd just make one change

Adult life It has to be seen very differently as Caster aged.

But it still doesn't change the need for the new ruling to be based on rigorous research. Imagine if they had found some other mechanism, no advantage and that, like Fatima Whitbred etc, CS was just one form of a very masculine woman? That was always a slim possibility!

Caster's own assertion that they don't relate to women at all (because they're soft, talk nonsense, etc)

TBF I have known women like this, but they usually grow more circumspect, because life etc.