Caster Semenya

[LilaJude]

Is anyone else outraged that sports bodies are suggesting forcing Caster Semenyer to take medication to reduce her testosterone levels?

Caster has a naturally occurring phenomenon which gives her more testosterone than the average woman, and this has been deemed a competitive advantage that needs to be medically regulated.

How is this fair? We don’t handicap other athletes for having longer legs or more muscle mass. The nature of sport is that people with exceptional bodies triumph.

It’s like these sports governing bodies are saying ‘testosterone is a man thing, women aren’t allowed it.’ But Caster does have it, naturally, and it’s just part of who she is.

I just think it’s outrageous to force a woman to medicate just because a naturally occurring condition means her body doesn’t fit with what is conventionally seen as feminine / female.

fairness for XX females isn't less important than fairness to people with CAIS.

This ^ needs to be said over and over.

But Curious, isn’t the point that we now know that this is NOT the case about CS, as no female characteristics are present at all? None!

So she doesn’t have a vagina or other female anatomy?

When you say “female characteristics” do you mean biological or social?

If it’s the latter then you are pretty much saying if a person dresses and acts like a stereotypical woman, then they are a woman, regardless of genitalia. Sound familiar?

If caster doesn’t have female genitalia then she shouldn’t be competing with women.

Truth is no one knows what Caster’s condition is, although she must have external female genitalia, or this discussion wouldn’t be happening.

Intersex conditions can be varied. Claire above has AIS- she may have male levels of testosterone, but her body cannot use it. Therefore she would have no advantage on a sporting field.

I don’t know the answer. I do feel though that this focus on testosterone is odd, there are many things that confer advantage in sport. What if a woman has the same average lung capacity as a man, or a pelvis which falls into the male width average? I suspect it is driven by the trans movement with the narrative that external genitalia is irrelevant, it is this hormone or that hormone, or other changeable factor that makes you male of female.

Chances are there are many intersex people out there who live life as their physical sex rather than chromosomal. In the main it likely confers disadvantages physically. Caster is a one off, but so are many elite athletes.

The criterion is XY plus "material androgynising effect" (virilisation).

*MIdgebabe

BECause I expect aggression from someone who is repeatly kicked. From someone who has faced aggression and distrust, and that coming from women will have hurt her the most. It’s not right, she should be called out, but it’s totally human, I i could not guarantee that I would not react In the same way.

Is this in response to my question about the misogyny and aggression towards women?? So you would take out your frustration at your medical condition on women because women didn’t accept you as female? And while it’s not ok, women should expect it if they upset someone

Ironically, the woman who is still the 800m world champion was almost certainly given performance enhancing drugs.

I presume this is referring to Flo Jo- world record?

46XY is what CS has. From wiki

This condition was used to be called "male pseudohermaphroditism". This is defined as incomplete masculinization of the external genitalia.[158] Thus, the person has the chromosomes of a man, but the external genitals are incompletely formed, ambiguous, or clearly female.[151] This condition is also called 46, XY with undervirilization.[151] 46, XY intersex has many possible causes, which can be problems with the testes and testosterone formation.[151] Also, there can be problems with using testosterone. Some people lack the enzyme needed to convert testosterone to dihydrotestosterone, which is a cause of 5-alpha-reductase deficiency.[151] Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome is the most common cause of 46, XY intersex.

What is the bloody criteria. Because it can't possibly be looks or socialisation. It isn't chromosomes. So what is it??? Oh! I see what you are asking now, sorry, was being dim! Lecturing head on...

Historically there was no reason to question as intersex women may not have been identified as intersex women. They were just 'masculine' looking, see also Fatima Whitbread, etc.

Sex testing came and went in various guises from the late 60s - they were testing for men pretendng to be women, not intersex individuals. As tests were shown to be unreliable new ones were invented but they were never really seen as reliable and was possibly to blmae fo some really reprehensible practices*. The last sex tests were in 1996, the Atlanta games.

Caster Semenya is the single person for whom sex testing was brought back, in 2009. The results were unsatisfactory and the panel recommended that a lot more research needed to be done into hyperangrogeny. During that time they agreed that any atlete suspected of hyperangrogeny could continue to compete until such time as the research was concluded - so Dutee Chand was reinstated.

That has now been brought back through various committes and this is the result.

• A UN document

reliefweb.int/report/world/report-special-rapporteur-right-everyone-enjoyment-highest-attainable-standard-0

A fairly horrifying read including cases were gonadectomies and partial cliteroidectomies were 'forced' upon athletes in order to continue competing!

Ironically, the woman who is still the 800m world champion was almost certainly given performance enhancing drugs.

I presume this is referring to Flo Jo- world record?

I expect it is referring to Maria Savinova who won 800m at 2012 Olympics before being banned and Caster upgraded to gold.

Sorry for the appalling mispers in there!

I feel huge sympathy for the athlete, but her high testosterone levels and masculine musculature clearly give her an unfair advantage over women competitors. Athletes who use performance enhancing drugs are disqualified and to me, this is no different.

Sorry Andyoldlabour I should have said record holder . I meant Jarmila Kratochvílová anyway.

Also Mldgbabe, I thought that was a great post. Started mine, made coffee, came back and posted but you were much more eloquent than me on the pressures on young athletes.

I expect it is referring to Maria Savinova who won 800m at 2012 Olympics before being banned and Caster upgraded to gold. Probably as Flo Jo was subject to some of the most rigorous testing available at the time and they found no evidence of steroid use. Savinova admitted her drug use...

Yes, sorry, I know nothing about athletics, should have kept my mouth shut! Just trying to keep up with this fascinating discussion

for Claire for your openness, your post here and on Twitter always help to clarify

Yes, the only person to beat a non-testosterone suppressed Semenya over 800m has been a doping Russian....

And there is no way Flo Jo was clean.

Jarmila Kratochvílová Mmm! Nothing there but rumour. Even the investigaton into Czech team doping didn't find a connection to her! Not sure what her 'edge' was, but it may not be doping or (and I'll aim to spell it correctly this time) hyperandrogeny.

Yes, the only person to beat a non-testosterone suppressed Semenya over 800m has been a doping Russian.... Yep!

And there is no way Flo Jo was clean. No evidence ever available for that!

bluebluezoo

When I sad no female characteristics above I was purely talking about biology. I don’t want to bring how CS presents into it as personally I think it’s irrelevant to making decisions about sport. However looking back through the thread, the links etc it is clear we are talking about:

XY (male chromosomes)
No primary or secondary female sex characteristics (internally or externally)
Has undecended testes

No as I said, no female sex characteristics. Just the visible absence of male ones.

Can I just say thanks... I am sat here supposedly working, getting some time sensitive reports completed.

Instead I am going back through my old lecturing notes and trying to find up to date reports and research to post. Most enjoyable

Sorry Curious, Bernard & Jenny

Meant to say record holder. A Czech athlete, Jarmika Kratochvílová.

Normally my posts just vanish into the ether. This is my world record for mentions but sadly because I got it wrong .

Her physique, her record that no one has got anywhere near in 30 years that was itself a nearly 0.5 second improvement in less than a year, retirement as mandatory testing was brought in...

Marion Jones never tested positive.

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK279170/

Have been reading this thread as I'm interested in the debate around both athletes like Castor and transwomen competing in XX women's sport. I found the above article which, following on from Clare's post, details the variety of conditions which fall into 46XY category.

I found it enlightening & feel sorry actually that there is no "fair" place for an athlete such as Castor to compete. It seems having both X&Y chromosomes is not by itself enough if a definition as incomplete development or development of mixed male/female gonads renders that person at a disadvantage to typical XY males.

I think the compromise of taking testosterone lowering drugs is probably the only way forward although I suppose you could argue the other way that she could take testosterone in order to reach a typically male level, depending on the specific nature of the DSD, which I'm not sure we actually know do we?

Meh, I feel sorry for Castor and also the women athletes she has been competing against.

NotBad Sorry, I didn't mean I didn't believe, just that it is conjecture as the drugs testing of the time didn't find anything. It is entirely possible that Flo Jo did dope, insinuations about her death from epilepsy abound.

Marion Jones, well circumstantial evidence alone condemns her, in my mind. I am not sure how she managed it but her team were very, very good!

But the IAFF still has a ban on Russian athletic federation over doping

So tests weren't really done, because people assumed they knew who was a man and who was a woman.

When that was ambiguous, presumably anatomy was inspected. (Which is why people get upset on Caster's behalf. I seem to remember her calling it humiliating, which I think everyone can agree with.)

Subsequently testing became more exact, but DSD conditions such as the one caster has, were accepted.

Until she started winning everything and it became clear that anyone with the same condition would do the same. And therefore these xy women are being sought by unscrupulous authorities everywhere.

It's just so unsatisfactory. One person has been allowed, but as soon as other people try and take advantage of the same circumstances, it suddenly becomes dodgy? Why?

It seems less about the principle of fucking women over, and more about the quantity suddenly. When the optics start to look bad.

there is no "fair" place for an athlete such as Castor to compete. That is the upshot of it! The reason it has taken so long for this decision to come down is that there needed to be proper, very specific, scientific proof of that before any changes to regs could be made - sport being a big business and all!

It can be hoped that the same decision making process will be applied to transwomen... but I wouldn't hold my breath!