Caster Semenya

[LilaJude]

Is anyone else outraged that sports bodies are suggesting forcing Caster Semenyer to take medication to reduce her testosterone levels?

Caster has a naturally occurring phenomenon which gives her more testosterone than the average woman, and this has been deemed a competitive advantage that needs to be medically regulated.

How is this fair? We don’t handicap other athletes for having longer legs or more muscle mass. The nature of sport is that people with exceptional bodies triumph.

It’s like these sports governing bodies are saying ‘testosterone is a man thing, women aren’t allowed it.’ But Caster does have it, naturally, and it’s just part of who she is.

I just think it’s outrageous to force a woman to medicate just because a naturally occurring condition means her body doesn’t fit with what is conventionally seen as feminine / female.

MIdegebabe You are right. Again I typed in haste, pissed off. I DO care about CS, the individual. Not in how she presents, how she reacts to the judgement, but as a fellow human being who has been dealt a weird hand in life.

I dont think CS started out to cheat. However once they knew why they had an advantage over other females then continuing to compete in female sport is what makes them a cheat.

Initially I had all kinds of sympathy for Caster, but I’m not prepared to ignore the obvious and repeated misogyny just because she is intersex and had a hard life. I’m not sure why women are again being asked to be nice to someone who hasn’t been nice to women.

Back in 2016, before CS won Olympic gold at Rio, she achieved an amazing feat at the South African National championships, winning the 400m, 800m, and 1,500m in the space of 4 hours, setting world leading times in the first 2 events, the first person to ever achieve that.
After CS won the gold at Rio, Dr Eric Vilain, a medical geneticist said this -
"if we push this argument, anyone declaring a female gender can compete as a woman ... We're moving toward one big competition, and the very predictable result of that competition is that there will be no women winners."
Eric Vilain was part of the IOC committee in 2015, where Joanna Harper's study/report heavily influenced the decision making with regard to transgender athletes competing.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caster_Semenya#2012%E2%80%932015

stillmed.olympic.org/Documents/Commissions_PDFfiles/Medical_commission/2015-11_ioc_consensus_meeting_on_sex_reassignment_and_hyperandrogenism-en.pdf

Caster’s problem is one of where the line is drawn. It should be simple: XY and XX as it used to be in everyday life, but as a result of rare intersex conditions and more recently with the whole transgender thing, it is less so.

I assume Caster would like exceptions for intersex conditions. I assume she would prefer not to be competing against athletic trans women. (Though her career may be over and done before they provide competition in her event.) Women want to compete against the most talented women and see Caster as having an advantage. There will be varying views on whether she should participate, and with what conditions.

The bigger picture is the Olympics and the future of women’s sport. Drawing a line to include Caster, especially without hormone reduction conditions, gives arguments to trans women athletes. It becomes really tricky to decide where the line is, not least because logically the same line should apply when considering junior talent pathways. Surveys suggest the public wants to see women face fair competition, and that an Olympics with a significant number of trans women medalists would not generate the same audience.

I suspect it boils down to:

the future of xx women’s sport vs Caster’s needs.

There is an Olympics next year and things need to be clarified before then. FWIW I think it is the right/only decision.

BECause I expect aggression from someone who is repeatly kicked. From someone who has faced aggression and distrust, and that coming from women will have hurt her the most. It’s not right, she should be called out, but it’s totally human, I i could not guarantee that I would not react In the same way.

This is what I've been trying to determine. I have seen photographs of women, obvious women, who have the Y chromosome.

Who are clearly, in every visual respect female to those they encounter. Who look nothing like CS.

And who don't appear to have the physical advantage that she has, either.

ClareCAIS - i'm assuming there is more than one way to have a DSD that involves a Y-chromosome where a person is considered a woman, because of their external anatomy? Is that the case?

What I'm trying to understand is the criteria that was used to include CS in the women's. Because, it is the authorities who appear to be using socialisation (i.e. raised as a girl), as the criteria. Not the people on here.

What is the actual criteria that the IAAF uses to decide if you race with the men or the women? Is my question. It's not about CS personally, or due to any negative attitude to her.

There seems to be a lot of secrecy and lack of transparency in the entire issue.

Of course it's going to give rise to conjecture and speculation.

Although I agree with the decision I do feel strongly that Caster should not be described as a cheat.

She has complied with all the rules of the competition even taking medication to reduce her T levels for a time.

I would agree that her continuing to compete could be considered "not in the spirit" but I personally draw a line at calling her a cheat.

Datum, I agree and that’s why I think Clare being so open is setting a great example, and clearly helping us understand

Even though I have a Y chromosomes ... I am unable to masculinise in any way. I am slightly taller than average at 5ft8 (sister is 5ft7), but have little muscle mass due to total insensitivity to androgens - I am what some people would refer to as an XY woman

But this doesn't describe caster.

We need to protect women's sport and protect the intersex girls who.may be used by trainers who don't care that their medical history will be discussed in the media.

Caster’s situation is completely different to CAIS though. She has clearly been virilised by androgens and benefited from that. CAIS is the only DSD that would make testosterone levels a moot point. The points made here are valid regarding XY people on the whole.

I would agree that her continuing to compete could be considered "not in the spirit" but I personally draw a line at calling her a cheat.

I don’t think she cheated, I’ve not seen many comments here along that line either. I do think she knew she had an unfair advantage after a certain point, especially as when she did reduce her T she didn’t do as well, and I think knowing that and pursuing this anyway is wrong & unfair to women.

The points made here are valid regarding XY people on the whole.

^ this

The thing that I have drawn from Clare's blogpost for Miranda, ClareCAIS's post here and other coverage is how complex this all is. Curious is right that we don't have all the medical details. Nor do we know the pressures Caster was under from coaches and sports officials. We know from the doping scandals of Eastern European athletes how these athletes were not making autonomous decisions. Even in this country, women cyclists have claimed they were bullied and unfairly treated by male coaches. Ironically, the woman who is still the 800m world champion was almost certainly given performance enhancing drugs.

The challenge for us as feminists is to find ways that recognise differences in biology, socialisation, and resources in sport.

for both Clares for their honesty in sharing their exxperiences.

i'm assuming there is more than one way to have a DSD that involves a Y-chromosome where a person is considered a woman, because of their external anatomy? Is that the case?

Yes. In layman's terms, one is impervious to testosterone and does not virilise (giving no athletic advantage) and the other isn't and does virilise (giving similar athletic advantage as any other male).

As Claire has said, her condition is the former. From what we can deduce by the judgement, Casters is the latter.

She has complied with all the rules of the competition even taking medication to reduce her T levels for a time.

Caster is following the rules. It's not her fault that the sporting authorities seem to be unsure about how.they want to deal with intersex athletes.

It would benefit everyone and sports if the authorities were more transparent.

Caster’s situation is completely different to CAIS though.

Ah ok (god, this is a minefield).

This is what I think I mean. The photographs of xy women that I have seen would absolutely be accepted as women under all and any circumstances, visually. (TRAs use them as proof - 'is THIS a man, eh, eh?).

Ah, thanks lang.

It would benefit everyone and sports if the authorities were more transparent.

Exactly.

What is the bloody criteria. Because it can't possibly be looks or socialisation. It isn't chromosomes. So what is it???

What I'm trying to understand is the criteria that was used to include CS in the women's. Initially because no one had formally tested her. Same as Duttee Chand and a few others from the Indian sub continent. They just 'were' women as that is how they had always been, from birth. Nobody to blame there, they were poor families living without much medical intervention.

After that, once on the international field, well you can't ignore the fact that there was some corruption involved. Various governing bodies were involved in that for various reasons. Later more testing, more science leading to this ruling. That's it. The first very visible cohort of intersex females has now competed, been questioned, tested, science has improved and decisons are being made based on that science. More is needed, doubtless the next Olympics will be somethingn of a shocker, leading to more changes.

I doubt we can guarantee what those changes are as the current, fashionable uber-wokeness may well scupper obvious changes. We can only wait and see how we can join in effective campaigning.

Due to the Dutee Chand case I'm sure the relevant organisations are well aware of the different types of DSD and how difficult it is to make rules which try to make allowances for those differences and protect women's sport.

I suspect that is why the phrase "material androgynising effect" is in the statement on this occasion. Somebody with CAIS won't have that because they could have high levels of testosterone which have no effect on the body, but somebody with eg. 5-ARD will, and will experience all the advantages of male puberty.

I expect the Dutee Chand case is the reason why they don't just say "no XY in women's sport".

But if enabling someone XY with CAIS to compete in the female category opens the door for someone XY with 5-ARD and "material androgynising effect" to also do so and dominate an event, then that has to be addressed because fairness for XX females isn't less important than fairness to people with CAIS. That is what this ruling does.

I don't understand why the ruling does't apply to all events but I guess they are going on a case by case basis. I expect it will crop up again in another event though.

Even if it is finally being addressed, I think people on the thread are entitled to feel angry on behalf of the female athletes during the last decade who have lost out on medals because this wasn't dealt with earlier. Those women put their heart and soul into their sport too only to lose out and they can never get that time and opportunity back again.

nettie434

"Ironically, the woman who is still the 800m world champion was almost certainly given performance enhancing drugs."

I am a bit confused by this, because the current World and Olympic champion at 800m is CS, and there is absolutely no suggestion that she was/is doping.

Yeah curious.

I read The New Yorker piece about caster and it seemed that there was political stuff involved in this

The IOC has to be more transparent.

Yeah Andy. There is no suggestion of doping at all and caster is current 800 metre Olympic champ

That should be clear

This ruling only applies to 46XY a very specific DSD. They can have testosterone levels from 5 - 25nmols. It simply cannot be fair for women with 1-2nmol to compete.

Thus what Caster's DSD is fairly obvious as to apppeal the ruling you must suffer from it.