Caster Semenya

[LilaJude]

Is anyone else outraged that sports bodies are suggesting forcing Caster Semenyer to take medication to reduce her testosterone levels?

Caster has a naturally occurring phenomenon which gives her more testosterone than the average woman, and this has been deemed a competitive advantage that needs to be medically regulated.

How is this fair? We don’t handicap other athletes for having longer legs or more muscle mass. The nature of sport is that people with exceptional bodies triumph.

It’s like these sports governing bodies are saying ‘testosterone is a man thing, women aren’t allowed it.’ But Caster does have it, naturally, and it’s just part of who she is.

I just think it’s outrageous to force a woman to medicate just because a naturally occurring condition means her body doesn’t fit with what is conventionally seen as feminine / female.

Nice one AyeRobot Like the username btw.

I once thought that CS was being punished for being a not very feminine woman, when I had heard only headlines and before I had read any of the science - and naively thought that obviously there was genetic sex testing.. but if CS is XY or has a Y then that is clear.

XX and XY sports. A male with a Y who has any kind of medical disorder, of sexual development of any other kind, and is disadvantaged against other males because of it, needs a paralympic category and if this cannot be done for reasons of establishing parity or for having too few competitors to make it viable, then this leaves them in the same boat and no worse off then many, many disabled people who cannot take part in sport (never mind real life) for exactly those same reasons.

Not everything in life can be made to be fair and equal as it it did not exist, humans should be given or intrinsic worth and value regardless of sex and ability/ disability and women should not have to be the ones to give up their chances to accommodate males.

I meant to say should be given our intrinsic worth and value regardless of sex and ability/ disability, not or.

Dresses as a man; was brought up and identified with boys; doesn't relate to girls; and is married to a woman who considered herself heterosexual.

This is the same reasoning TRAs use to claim transwomen live as a woman.

Melroses

mirandayardley.com/en/caster-semenya-no-one-wins/

Clare (MRKH banned from twitter) has written a piece for Miranda's blog. Much needed level headed and informed voice of reason - huge mistake for twitter to ban her. angry

I'm a big fan of Clare/MRKH. In that piece, she is referring to Caster as an XY woman.

Normally she is incredibly clear and easy to understand. So I'm still floundering about the description XY woman.

I've found it interesting and actual pretty disheartening to read the comments on a lot of the press on this issue. Many comparisons to Michael Phelps and his natural advantage in swimming etc - people seem to equate her high levels of T with that, which I think quite frankly is wrong and naive. But it goes to show what a poorly discussed issue this is in the media when very few articles give any clarity as just what her condition is and the fact that she is XY and therefore should not be competing with XX females.

I sympathise with her on a personal level but am very relieved with this decision and what it hopefully means going forward.

Justhadathought

The press, and everyone else, has been assuming womanhood based on the 'she' pronoun, and due to the fact that the true nature of the increased testosterone levels and clear male physique, facial features and voice, has been attributed to a 'naturally occurring phenomenon'. This has made it seem as if Caster's primary sex is female - rather than the male it really is. And so everyone is assuming a misinterpreted and unjustly treated woman

Yes. I don’t think many people realize that the IAAF includes in their “female classification” eligibility criteria a number of XY DSDs. Meaning DSDs that occur in men. Their “naturally occurring phenomenon” is having male gonads - testes...that naturally produce testosterone.

So according to the regulations, Caster can compete as a female as long as they are legally recognized as female or as intersex even if they have one of those XY DSDs. So they are male, but everyone has to still call them female because apparently that is how they are classified.

Radio 4 Today programme doing an item now. Started at 7:35. Martina Navratilova being interviewed.

I suspect there is a wide variety of DSDs with a wide variety of impacts on a persons development which does not help this conversation.

I would still feel uncomfortable if all top women’s sport was filled with people with a specific DSD. YOU don’t want to be excluded because of your body and neither do other women.

Reading much of what has been written today has been horrible, we have no choice but to exist in these bodies, with all the discrimination, stigma and from what I’ve seen today, disgust & ridicule. For me, it would never have been safe or appropriate for me to compete with men - and if some are really arguing to ban people like me as non-women, what else will I be excluded from?

The comments on this thread are about a specific person who has known about their condition at least 10 years, and is performing in high level sports. It is not discrimination to protect sports and have rules that all athletes follow. Nobody is ridiculing anyone here- actually Caster has ridiculed women and girls so you’d be right in condemning Caster for doing so. While this is difficult and can be seen to someone in your position as ‘unfair’, it would be more unfair for many more athletes if Caster and others were able to compete with women when they are biologically male and have such obvious physical advantages that other women simply do not have. It would be perfectly safe for Caster to run alongside other males, this isn’t impact sport. At the end of the day, it is unfortunate but some people just cannot be competitive athletes for medical or biological reasons.

mirandayardley.com/en/caster-semenya-no-one-wins/

Well, that said what I have been trying to say through this thread! I have become increasingly frustrated with some of the more vitriolic, less thinking posts. Stating definitively that CS is this, is that. YOU DON'T FUCKING KNOW, YOU ARE GUESSING! We all are. The organisations that could give us much more clarity are striding the thin line between CSs medical confidentiality and the public need to know. That and trying to piece together what actually went before - likely some corruption as that has been widely touted for years!

And ClareCAIS has fully explained what an XYwoman is. I fear that in our haste to fend of any and all TRA infiltration we are throwing intersex people under the bus, just as they feared!

It really doesn't matter how you view CS, how masculine she now appears. Her roots are female, that is how she was born and all those TRA words spring up: identified at birth etc etc again I

Intersex people have long been asking not to be conflated with TRAs. GC posters here have agreed with them... and now.... what? Just because we don't like the way the most visible intersex athlete presents. GC posters are going with the feelz? Please, have some shame!

Just step back. CS is the figurehead of some much needed sport science and changes in sporting regulations. I doubt she ever intended to be. The changes are the important thing. This ruling brings a lot of complex science inot the public view. Add to that the potential for transwomen athletes being dominant in some Olympic sports and we have the possible start of a very loud and effective push back!

CuriousaboutSamphire who the hell do you think you are? Shame for what? This is a misogynistic athlete who has fought to race alongside women despite knowing they have physical advantages akin to males and has XY. What exactly do you think women here should feel shame about? We aren’t guessing, press statements show clearly. That’s what the comments here are based on: facts. You’re right, this has nothing to do with trans issues so why bring that up? This is about protecting women’s sports and maintaining fairness for women, and this is a feminist board so bore of with your shame comments. I feel no shame for calling out misogyny and I feel zero shame for wanting to protect women’s sports.

Her roots are female, that is how she was born

But Curious, isn’t the point that we now know that this is NOT the case about CS, as no female characteristics are present at all? None!

Clare

I’m uncomfortable with some of the commentary, including some comments here, and I’m not Intersex. Hope you are okay.

That was the body Caster was born with, she legitimately thought she was female until an adult (not saying the wrong decision was reached).

But some of the negativity directed at Caster is unfair imo, wouldn’t you try to keep your career (without taking drugs) if it was your livelihood?

As for she wore boys clothes, hung with boys, sat with her legs apart (!!)... what has that got to do with it? Many XX women are the same - by this logic they should all be transitioning to male!

Biology is relevant (determinative in fact). But the sex stereotypes are not.

Going with the feelz? Did you mean to sound so patronising Samphire?

You are asking women to trust that the authorities will make the right decision. We have already seen that they cannot be trusted to do that and that there are some very loud shouting that genitals and T levels don't matter.

DSDs and trans issues are not the same thing but a lot of people have a vested interest in conflating the two.

We don't all come from the same position. Sharron Davies and Navratilova disagree and that's fine. What isn't fine is telling women to shut up and step back.

Me? Someone who disagrees with you. Someone who has some knowledge and a more open mind!

and this is a feminist board so bore of with your shame comments. I feel no shame for calling out misogyny and I feel zero shame for wanting to protect women’s sports. I don't think so, sweetie! Being feminist is not a fee pass for closed mindedness, a lack of critical thinking and posting emotionally loaded crap.

And you ARE guessing. Nobody in the public knows precisely what CSs genetic make up is, that information has not been released, it has been deduced, surmised etc, from the ruling and previous information leaks.

You’re right, this has nothing to do with trans issues so why bring that up? Did you read my posts, did you read MYs blog? The reasoning is fairly clear, for both good and bad!

I saw on twitter that someone claimed the ruling had an exemption for women with CAIS (can’t find it now, sorry).

Interesting interview with martina who differentiates between the issue of trans people and those with DSD - rightly so IMO - and who therefore is disappointed in this ruling. She’s making a documentary about the issue of trans people in sports which will be interesting to watch.

And for Clare

Oh and clare thanks for coming forward so openly with your experiance, it is so very helpful to know more about the complexities of this

But some of the negativity directed at Caster is unfair imo, wouldn’t you try to keep your career (without taking drugs) if it was your livelihood?

No, not if I came to realise I had an unfair advantage- Caster knew years ago FYI. Some of the negativity is due to Casters misogynistic comments, do you have any comment on that?

Going with the feelz? Did you mean to sound so patronising Samphire
Yes, Orchid. As I typed it I did. I am annoyed...

I am not asking any women to trust any authority, those concerened have, as I have said a few times, shown themselves to be corrupt for far too long. BUT now that this is out in the open, cat out of the bag so to speak, more can and will be done. Unless you think that female scientists in the sphere will just roll over and shut up!

We don't all come from the same position, you are right! I'm not asking anyone to SHUT UP , I haven't said that at all! Just that some posts here are uninformed, full of conjecture.

HumberElla I am trying to make the point that CS didn't start out as a cheat, didn't know she was a he and that, despite what we now know was supported by the organisations involved in continuing to compete. That they are now changing their policies is the important thing. What CS does with the ruling is down to her. Frankly I don't care about her, the individual. I care more about the impact this has on female sport!

for ClareCAIS. Regardless of anybody's issues on the rights and wrongs of the Semenya case, I'm sure we can all take a breath and appreciate that sometimes hot button issue attracting a lot of attention can be extremely painful if you have a personal connection.

Yes ClAire. Always enjoyed your twitter

ACtually I do care about caster. She has had to deal with so much and I am not sure that she is getting good support from her trainers. Who is is now is partly a result of all she has had to live through...imagine thinking you are a girl and then discovering the problems. It’s sounds incredibly difficult to cope with and she was right in the public and press gaze.

I have heard that the South African sports authorities are deliberately seeking out girls with her condition, without really explaining to the girls. and that to me is bordering on abuse. It will lead to those girls coming under lots of scrutiny and abuse.