Caster Semenya

[LilaJude]

Is anyone else outraged that sports bodies are suggesting forcing Caster Semenyer to take medication to reduce her testosterone levels?

Caster has a naturally occurring phenomenon which gives her more testosterone than the average woman, and this has been deemed a competitive advantage that needs to be medically regulated.

How is this fair? We don’t handicap other athletes for having longer legs or more muscle mass. The nature of sport is that people with exceptional bodies triumph.

It’s like these sports governing bodies are saying ‘testosterone is a man thing, women aren’t allowed it.’ But Caster does have it, naturally, and it’s just part of who she is.

I just think it’s outrageous to force a woman to medicate just because a naturally occurring condition means her body doesn’t fit with what is conventionally seen as feminine / female.

Comments in any individual, as an individual, is not needed.

But an individual pursued this, it is about an individual, and one who has been very misogynistic as a public professional athlete regardless of all this. Why the fuck shouldn’t we criticise them for their behaviour and decisions, as a fully grown adult?

When I rule the world, this will happen...

We will stop pandering to people. There is a simple biological fact here which should be the only deciding factor, and it's the existence of the Y chromosome. I don't actually care if testing for it is "humiliating." Athletes all submit to routine doping tests now anyway, and if they want to compete at an elite level, with all the opportunities, fame and rewards that brings, then tough, they need to have the test. Andy Murray had to take a random drug test just as he was leaving his house to go and be knighted by the Queen or something ffs, and he just got on with it.

If you have a Y chromosome, you cannot compete in women's sport. You compete in men's sport (that takes care of the likes of Rachael McKinnon as well). If you have no Y chromosome, you compete in women's sport.

Which would mean that Caster would not be able to compete in women's sport regardless of whether it's 800m, 5000m etc.

Sure it's unfair to the very small number of people, like Caster, who were raised as girls but later turn out to be intesex / have a Y chromosome, but fairness to the majority of people has to be the first consideration. It's "unfair" to transwomen (and transmen, although we don't really hear about transmen wanting to compete in men's sport), but it is fair to women.

Incidentally, I did feel sorry for Caster initially - I mean, what a bloody shock, finding out in the public eye that you weren't what you thought you were. However, she's had 10 years to come to terms with this, and she now needs to stop throwing women under the bus to fulfil her own selfish ambitions.

I'm happy for Caster to keep the medals and titles she won before she knew about her Y chromosome - she was innocent of any wrongdoing then.

And also incidentally, I don't believe that women (i.e. XX chromosomes) with naturally-occurring higher-than-average testosterone levels should have to lower them in order to compete in sport, but I do think there needs to be testing of testosterone levels to check that doping isn't happening.

Hard cases make bad law.

I’ve got a sinking feeling that we’ve been lied to about the whole intersex thing all along

We now know they have XY chromosomes and my eyes and ears definitely agree with the science.

There is evidence if duplicity, from 2009 on. But as CS was given the OK to continue competing, as we're others, then this again comes down to changes in policies partly due to further scientific research and partly due to changes in the IOC and AIIC hierarchy.

Ok CuriousaboutSamphire. That would be useful.

I must admit, I was a little shocked, myself about the way Caster looked in the interview, and the things they said about women.

It doesn't mean that a woman cannot be misogynistic towards other women, or present in a butch way. Of course.

It's just that the whole brought up female narrative suddenly took an immediate knocking. In which case, where has that narrative come from?

X-ray of pelvic region and "q-angle" of femur to knee joint will also be relevant here. If skeleton has male pelvis configuration rather than female configuration and "q-angle" expresses male range, this is further evidence of predominantly male characteristics resulting from a testosterone fuelled puberty.

That, Mrs SG, is a pretty good summation if what I have been trying to say.

I hope nobody is suggesting that the IAAF was a tiny bit corrupt?

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lamine_Diack#Investigations_into_corruption

I'm happy for Caster to keep the medals and titles she won before she knew about her Y chromosome

I strongly suspect that to be none.

The man who did win a medal while genuinely believing he was female handed it back (and I believe went on to father a child)

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6772989/Intersex-skiing-champion-say-transgender-women-NOT-compete-female-events.html

The general public has been gaslight for a long time by persons unknown with an extremely nasty agenda.

I think you've written really informatively on this thread @CuriousaboutSamphire - you motivated me to comment!

Well I'm getting more and more suspicious. Partly because of the massive number of deletions here!

What the fuck is going on?

This is nothing to do with trans, so it's not TRAs.

That's a really interesting article jacky - thank you

MrsSpenserGregson

I look forward to you ruling the world

@Datun yes I know what you mean about CS' "raised as a female" narrative taking a knocking - that video upthread really shocked me

I'm trying to stay as uncynical as possible, but it's becoming increasingly difficult ...

This is nothing to do with trans, so it's not TRAs

I suspect it is TRA’s they’re all over appropriating intersex, they had MRKH (can’t remember the exact handle) taken off twitter!

Never forget how the magnificent woman who is Kelly Holmes struggled to achieve her Olympic Gold Medals on the track.

Never forget how the magnificent woman who is Sharron Davies struggled to win her Olympic Silver Medal in the pool.

Never forget all of our wonderful women athletes who have achieved their medals against the odds that were presented by cheats.

@RepealTheGRA ah thank you, I can't wait . My mum always told me I'd be Prime Minister some day (I promise I'm not TM ) but I thought I'd set my sights a bit higher....

I’ve been reeling all afternoon about the fact that CS is XY - all the commentary recently (before the ruling today) has been based on the fact she is “female” with naturally occurring testosterone and that to ask about her chromosomes was “humiliating”.

The truth seems to be that CS is a male with DSD, not a female with DSD, and therefore should not be competing in any women’s sports.

Gaslighting on an international scale.

I don’t get the ‘humiliation’ reason given for dismissing chromosome testing. Who would be humiliated exactly and how? 90% of people would get the results they expected.

A small % of people would get certainty, that they had perhaps not previously not had. A few might be surprised and the result may well have social and medical implications for them.

Why would finding out you were one sex or other be humiliating?

I’ve got a sinking feeling that we’ve been lied to about the whole intersex thing all along

We now know they have XY chromosomes and my eyes and ears definitely agree with the science.

I'm no expert, but doesn't XY46 mean the person is intersex? And she must be XY46 given that she's clearly not CAIS.

From the article that JackyHolyoake posted:

"Even before Semenya left Limpopo for college, in Pretoria, she had won a gold medal in her event at the 2008 Commonwealth Youth Games, in Pune, India, with a time of 2:04, eleven seconds behind the senior world record set by the Czech runner Jarmila Kratochvílová in 1983. “I used to tell Caster that she must try her level best,” Sako said. “By performing the best, maybe good guys with big stomachs full of money will see her and then help her with schooling and the likes. That is the motivation.” He added, “And she always tried her level best.” Semenya won another gold medal in July, in Mauritius, at the African Junior Athletics Championships, lowering her time by a remarkable seven and a half seconds, to come in at 1:56.72.* This beat the South African record for that event, held by Zola Budd, and qualified Semenya for her first senior competition, the 2009 World Championships, in Berlin."

I think this demonstrates that CS went through male puberty.

I've been told that my post was deleted as not being in the spirit. Despite me claiming that presenting as butch and looking male is irrelevant to whether or not you are female. Or male actually.

If it is TRAs who are reporting, they are struggling to grasp how I'm actually helping them 🤣

Some of the TRAs are not good readers, Datun...

Also from that article: "Sako’s English was fluent but rough, and he frequently referred to Semenya as “he.” “Caster was very free when he is in the male company,” Sako said. “I remember one day I asked her, ‘Why are you always in the company of men?’ He said, ‘No, man, I don’t have something to say to girls, they talks nonsense. They are always out of order.’ ”

Sako was CS'S trainer

@SlipperyLizard I think the fact that CS has repeatedly, since 2009, refused to confirm or deny that CS has a Y chromosome, has always suggested that CS knew about it from that point on. I am prepared to believe that it was a shock - as others have said, CS, grew up in a very poor area where access to genetic testing etc simply would not have been possible. But this story has rumbled on for 10 years now and there is absolutely no way that CS can claim anything other than total intention to deceive everyone since 2009, albeit with encouragement / assistance from promoters, trainers etc.

I do have a lot of sympathy for CS. They should have been given support, counselling etc when this all happened in 2009. Instead they have been exploited and let down.