Active discussions

Meet the Other Phone. Only the apps you allow.

Meet the Other Phone.
Only the apps you allow.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Talk
Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Feminism: chat

Original poster

Caster Semenya

999 replies

LilaJude · 18/02/2019 07:50

Is anyone else outraged that sports bodies are suggesting forcing Caster Semenyer to take medication to reduce her testosterone levels?

Caster has a naturally occurring phenomenon which gives her more testosterone than the average woman, and this has been deemed a competitive advantage that needs to be medically regulated.

How is this fair? We don’t handicap other athletes for having longer legs or more muscle mass. The nature of sport is that people with exceptional bodies triumph.

It’s like these sports governing bodies are saying ‘testosterone is a man thing, women aren’t allowed it.’ But Caster does have it, naturally, and it’s just part of who she is.

I just think it’s outrageous to force a woman to medicate just because a naturally occurring condition means her body doesn’t fit with what is conventionally seen as feminine / female.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
10
cupofteaandcake · 01/05/2019 17:26

Sorry I meant 10 years Blush
Still crap though...

nettie434 · 01/05/2019 17:27

Datun
I am not sure. Until today there has been a lot of rumour.

RepealTheGRA · 01/05/2019 17:27

So why have people always said (and are still saying) that Semenya is a woman? Sorry, I feel really thick saying that but how can they be a woman if they have a Y chromosome? Why were they ever allowed to compete as a woman?

Because there are a lot of misogynistic men with influence and women are socialised to be ‘nice’. Angry

CuriousaboutSamphire · 01/05/2019 17:29

Which seems to be about the only reason they were allowed to compete in women's sports. That and presumably the lack of a penis. That's not really how she started though is it? It is how she ended up though and, as nettie has also said, she was used by the system at that point. We, Joe Public, have no idea what she knew for certain when. All we know is that she is not man who pretended to be a woman, she has always competed legally and that she will now have to have a rethink. Hopefully the change in distance will not work and she will just retire gracefully (though I suspect not).

You asked about why some (me, included) were assuming she was struggling with her 'identoity (3 time in one thread Blush) I was just taking it on face value, she is human, she was raised believing she was female with some medical issues, now, we are assuming, she is male, physically. Who the hell wouldn't find that a bit of a puzzler?

Regardless of how CS presents herself now she is not a transwoman. She is not a TRA. She is an intersex person, now, we are assuming, wholly identified as a male one., biologically. Intersex people are, as they have always held, not to be conflated with transwomen as a physical medical abnormality is not the same as a psychological one.

I find it quite distasteful that some posters here are discussing her as though she set out to deceive, to cheat, to be an intersex athlete and to hell with it! She is just one of a number of intersex women athletes who will now have to work through their changed status. As will all those following closely. This change in competitive regs will begin some clarification, though it will doubtless rage on.

JackyHolyoake · 01/05/2019 17:31

Ooh! Just caught up with World At One ... Sharron Davies! Thank you!

Wine and flowers, cake and star for you !

Plus Gold Star!

Wine Flowers Cake Star

Caster Semenya
CuriousaboutSamphire · 01/05/2019 17:32

Sharon Davis has just said on LBC that they knew 20 years ago that CS had a Y chromosome. This should have been dealt with at that time That doesn't tie in with any of the public information w have ever been told before! She would have been 8!!!

The only date I have heard of for a first test was in 2009... and she was allowed to continue comepting as a woman!

RepealTheGRA · 01/05/2019 17:36

CuriousaboutSamphire

Original poster has already admitted 20 years is a typo - should’ve been 10

Jenny17 · 01/05/2019 17:38

The only date I have heard of for a first test was in 2009... and she was allowed to continue comepting as a woman!

I think the poster has corrected it to 10 years so in 2009. After the tests Caster has restrictions placed but these where thrown out when the Indian athlete Dutee Chandler challenged them and they have been that way ever since to present day.

JackyHolyoake · 01/05/2019 17:43

Yes! It was known a decade ago that CS had a XY chromosomes ... CS knew all the details of this too!

www.newyorker.com/magazine/2009/11/30/eitheror

JessicaWakefieldSV · 01/05/2019 17:44

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

RepealTheGRA · 01/05/2019 17:50

Sorry but there’s just too much evidence and I’m done with assuming the best of people when it is women who end up being disadvantaged

I too am losing sympathy by the the second, especially in light of the allegation that coaches are deliberately scouting for athletes with DSD’s.

I will be reserving my sympathy for the women and girls who don’t have a level playing field.

VickyEadie · 01/05/2019 17:51

Just had an email from Change.org asking me to sign a petition in support of Semenya being allowed to run in the events they want to.

Fuck off.

RussianSpamBot · 01/05/2019 17:59

I'm sympathetic with Caster's position initially at 2009 worlds, especially as it's pretty clear the SA federation knew what they were doing. I can also see why the lure of the money and lifestyle were too much for a kid who grew up so poor. Initially.

Her activity in the last few years as an adult knowing full well she was 46XY, and having established herself sufficiently in life that she had other options to make a living other than running, that lessens my sympathy significantly.

RepealTheGRA · 01/05/2019 18:00

*Just had an email from Change.org asking me to sign a petition in support of Semenya being allowed to run in the events they want to.

Fuck off*

Fuck off, fuck off, FUCK OFF Angry

JackyHolyoake · 01/05/2019 18:01

It's really basic here:

anyone with XY dominant chromosomes and who experiences a testosterone driven puberty is predominantly male;

anyone with XX dominant chromosomes and who experiences an oestrogen driven puberty is predominantly female

CS is predominantly male and should never have been able to enter any female competition as soon as this configuration of chromosomes became known.

We have all, and possibly even including CS, have been gaslit by those who sought to profit financially from such a situation.

Datun · 01/05/2019 18:02

You asked about why some (me, included) were assuming she was struggling with her 'identoity (3 time in one thread blush) I was just taking it on face value, she is human, she was raised believing she was female with some medical issues,

CuriousaboutSamphire. What I'm trying to ascertain is did someone just say the words she was raised as female?

Or is there actual evidence? Photo album, articles, a biography, family anecdotes, etc.

Was she raised as female until puberty? At which point, it became obvious? Or what?

It's not prurient interest. I couldn't care less. I'm just trying to work out how innocent this is or whether or not there is duplicity involved.

It appears that the general public absolutely believe this is a female person. With ambiguous genitalia, but who is nonetheless female. Properly female.

Even the people on this thread who have watched the video are utterly shocked.
That is spin. It absolutely is.

So why is it necessary?

CuriousaboutSamphire · 01/05/2019 18:02

I did didn't see the correction, apologies.

I think there are 2 issues here and the black and white of CS knew isn't the whole story.

CS and Dutee, amongst others, are the first high profile, successful tranche of intersex athletes the athletics world have had. They have competed both in good faith and when they have been queried, tested etc. That this debate was had, that the decisions made we're revisited and modified, overturned is what is supposed to happen in all aspects of life.

Comments in any individual, as an individual, is not needed. This entire thread would have been just as interesting and informative without the conjecture and unpleasantness.

RepealTheGRA · 01/05/2019 18:03

Yep! Think JackyHolyoake has nailed it. It IS really basic and I don’t why we’re pretending otherwise and it has all been driven by misogyny and greed.

thenightsky · 01/05/2019 18:03

Wow at that video!! Shock

Datun · 01/05/2019 18:06

Comments in any individual, as an individual, is not needed. This entire thread would have been just as interesting and informative without the conjecture and unpleasantness.

Where is the evidence that caster didn't know? Where is the evidence that there is no duplicity?

Where is the evidence that her/his promoters didn't know?

It's not nasty to speculate about this. It's entirely necessary. It's women, many women who are losing out because of it.

RussianSpamBot · 01/05/2019 18:07

We have all, and possibly even including CS, have been gaslit by those who sought to profit financially from such a situation.

I suspect you're right.

HumberElla · 01/05/2019 18:08

So for a decade they have known CS is biologically male, with a Y chromosome and absolutely no female sex characteristics whatsoever? And CS continued to compete as female.

And the hugely competitive, lucrative and commercial world of elite athletics did what? Nada.

Those other Rio competitors, my god ...

littlbrowndog · 01/05/2019 18:08

Yeah but anybody that watches athletics has guessed this just by watching

But were afraid to speak out
Whenever I watched caster running I was like well

Woman’s middle distance running no more

JackyHolyoake · 01/05/2019 18:08

And, yes, I am suggesting that there is a possibility of deliberate corruption here and that this does need to be investigated to the nth degree.

CuriousaboutSamphire · 01/05/2019 18:08

Thanks Datun, that makes more sense.

I used CS as a case study with students for a few years around the time of that first test. As far as I remember she was dressed, raised, treated as female from birth. Issues were noted when she began playing sport, but more that she was good, strong and fast.

Wikipedia still has a fairly untainted timeline... I'm on my phone or I'd track down some better info.

Swipe left for the next trending thread