Meet the Other Phone. Flexible and made to last.

Meet the Other Phone.
Flexible and made to last.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Martina speaks out!

599 replies

PimmsnLemonade · 17/02/2019 01:14

I'm so pleased to see this. I've been a big fan of Martina since I was a kid and this just makes her go up even higher in my estimation:

www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/martina-navratilova-blasts-cheating-transgender-women-in-sport-8fmjbnh99

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/the-rules-on-trans-athletes-reward-cheats-and-punish-the-innocent-klsrq6h3

OP posts:
Thread gallery
27
Smartieshavetheanswer · 17/02/2019 09:19

She has hit the best return of her career, Mckinnon is tasting the dust.

MenstruatorExtraordinaire · 17/02/2019 09:21

Nic Williams on LBC with Andrew Castle discussing this

Martina speaks out!
Notevenmyrealname · 17/02/2019 09:25

This person thinks that having a PhD in Philosophy is the same as being a qualified biologist. I have a degree in cultural studies and history (don’t ask) so obvs that qualifies me to talk about engineering with some authority. Hmm

Martina speaks out!
SeeYouLaterUserData · 17/02/2019 09:29

This makes me so happy. Martina is the true embodiment of "stunning and brave" and this actually makes me feel a bit weepy. Love you Martina 💓

lottiebel123 · 17/02/2019 09:30

McKinnon is yet again peak transing the world.

MillytantForceit · 17/02/2019 09:31

Just how do you get a PhD without being able to read?

ErrolTheDragon · 17/02/2019 09:37

But where do you draw the line with natural advantages?

We have 2 classes for most sports based on biological sex. The reason for this is the distinct bimodal distribution of physical traits (height, muscle mass, bone density, VO2max etc) which arise largely due to the effect of testosterone - both at the time of competing and during puberty. So for most people the fair line is biological sex. People with intersex conditions will need to be considered individually but if they were producing male levels of testosterone during and after puberty due to internal testes, then unfortunately even if they were completely unaware of this and grew up as a woman, when it comes to sport they fall on the male side of the line.

I don't think the dividing line should have anything to do with external genitalia - on that point I agree with McKinnon, sporting ability isn't determined by whether you have a penis though obviously that leads me to a different conclusion re who should compete in women's sports.

MrsSnippyPants · 17/02/2019 09:39

Racing driver Charlie now on LBC ‘I was gendered male at birth’ ........

CallingDannyBoy · 17/02/2019 09:40

This is such a good morning. Thank you Martina and Andrew. Fanbloodytastic

ErrolTheDragon · 17/02/2019 09:40

Just how do you get a PhD without being able to read?

If you really want to know, here's McKinnon's thesis.

uwspace.uwaterloo.ca/handle/10012/6619

Iused2BanOptimist · 17/02/2019 09:41

The Times/Sunday Times have excelled this week. I will be buying a copy today to make up for all the share tokens I have read. This along with the Gids report article makes me very happy. The wheels are really coming off the bus. People of influence are waking up and speaking out.

And as McKinnon has blocked half the world she may as well have her tantrum home alone. Is there a pram big enough?

HotpotLawyer · 17/02/2019 09:42

The ‘executed’ post was a piss take. The guy has tweeted in support of Martina, and says he was a ball boy to both Martina and Renée Richards. He has been blocked by McKinnon.

ErrolTheDragon · 17/02/2019 09:46

The ‘executed’ post was a piss take

Unhelpful, in times when 'burn terfs' posters are displayed unironically.Hmm

NoseringGirl · 17/02/2019 09:46

Fantastic article, intelligent and balanced.

IHeartKingThistle · 17/02/2019 09:51

Amazing stand from Martina. Hope she is listened to.

HamiltonCork · 17/02/2019 09:52

Well done Martina.

MillytantForceit · 17/02/2019 09:52

There are sports where genetalia can be a hinderance.

There's a reason why male gymnasts don't go on the balance beam. And those Amazons cut one boob off to aid their archery.

MrsSnippyPants · 17/02/2019 09:52

Debbie Hayton on now

LordProfFekkoThePenguinPhD · 17/02/2019 09:52

Has the cyclist commented (‘and just who are you, lady???’ I imagine)?

FlyingOink · 17/02/2019 09:54

People with intersex conditions will need to be considered individually but if they were producing male levels of testosterone during and after puberty due to internal testes
Ok, how about if the excess testosterone was due to an adrenal gland issue and there are no internal testes and never were?
If we make testes the deciding factor then there will be legal challenges from those who have had an orchidectomy.
If we make testes from birth the deciding factor then do we make an MRI compulsory before professional registration as an athlete? What does that mean for competitors from poorer nations?

I agree that sex segregation in sport should continue, and I think intersex athletes should compete in their sex category. From what I've read, all intersex people can be classified as either male or female, as no person is able or theoretically able to produce both male and female zygotes.
But if Semenya is female? No testes? What then? Is it fair for her to compete with massive levels of anabolic steroids in her system (as that is what the testosterone is acting as) and likewise is it fair to subject her to Lupron or similar?
I'm not being goady, I can't make up my mind on this.

mammoon · 17/02/2019 09:55

MARTINA SMASHED IT!!! LOVE HER!!!

I hope there are lots of screenshots of Mckinnon's twitter meltdown. I'm blocked (despite never having had any sort of interaction with McK, like, ever.)

LordProfFekkoThePenguinPhD · 17/02/2019 09:58

I’m sure I read recently in the Times (this week) that Semenya has been judged as male by sports bodies now. She isn’t at all happy but I didn’t see any of the blue haired boys rallying to her defence.

FlyingOink · 17/02/2019 10:04

LordProfFekkoThePenguinPhD
I did have a look but couldn't find anything on it sorry

QuantamBaby · 17/02/2019 10:09

I went to have a look at McKinnons twitter feed to find out I have also been blocked - despite having no direct interactions! I may have liked a few gender critical tweets over the last few weeks - does this mean I've been added to some sort of 'nasty transphobe' list? What the hell happened to debate and critical thinking eh?

Knicknackpaddyflak · 17/02/2019 10:09

I'm very sorry for Semenya, but in competitive sport she has an unfair advantage. Rules have to be made for what is the overwhelming majority and a very small number of people need to accept that their personal rights and experiences can't be prioritised over fairness in international sport.