Womb transplants for trans women are a human right, says surgeon

[QuietContraryMary]

www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/transgender-women-should-entitled-womb-13972102

"Because once the medical community accept this as a treatment for cis-women with uterine infertility, such as congenital absence of a womb, then it would be illegal to deny a trans-female who has completed her transition.

"The most important step is the harvesting from the donor as great care is required to avoid damage to the arteries and veins supplying the uterus.
Trans females have a much narrower pelvis than cis-women of the same height, but there would still be room for them to carry a child.

“Supplemental hormones could be taken to replicate the changes that occur in the body when a woman is pregnant.

@Divingintothis sorry, I shouldn't have insulted you like that. It just seems we don't/won't/can't fix female fertility issues so this seems like a slap in the face.

Again, apologies for being shouty.

Strange twisty arguments you make jazz don't translate really....mainly because it does hurt women, and its not a competition, but you have presented it as such.

No, smother, you misunderstand me.

Workplace discrimination will not simply stop, because unconscious bias exists. The more men are involved in raising children, the more that bias goes away because the stigma we put on women (even childless women) due to their perceived childcare commitments will gradually lesson. When dad is the SAHP, or when dad is the one who gets the phone call to pick the child up from school, it becomes a parent issue and not a mum issue. There are great initiatives in place to assist this but it has to also be organic.

The extreme version of that is men being the ones who are pregnant and take the maternity leave. I absolutely acknowledge this is extreme. I am not suggesting that’s a reason to do it.

I am curious, however, as to why the anger at thinking that men having babies is so terrible, if safe?

^lessen not lesson.

I am curious, however, as to why the anger at thinking that men having babies is so terrible, if safe?

Because not nearly enough is done for women who can't have babies. Or women who suffer from horrific health conditions and have it passed off and overlooked.

Wires, no need to apologies. I’ve been there and I know it hurts. I hope things are resolved for you soon.

I don’t think men having babies should be any kind of medical priority, I really am only talking about the end-state.

Basic fact for you, women and men are very different, turning men I to women or women I to men, is just not the answer is all. They are not same, not equal, but having equal opportunities is the way.

This convo is too surreal. I am not engaging with it further. Its going in circles now, I wish you all a good night.

Marguerita - I think your first two statements could equally be attributed to IVF and that’s a whole other argument. In my opinion, saying people should be happy with their lot is a very strong and slightly shocking statement

I am opposed to IVF and surrogacy.

In terms of the stigma that I’m making up, I actually work in this field and give talks on this topic. It is very very real. There is an unconscious bias against women in the workplace in terms of promotion, hiring, opportunities. Of course, there are far less extreme ways of tackling this but I strongly feel that the contribution of men to child rearing is the key to solving this

Oh wow you give talks on this ! I mean what would I know - being an actual working mother and an employer who currently has 3 solicitors (of her department of 15) on maternity leave at the moment. I'll bear you in mind if I need any tips on how to nurture and promote my female staff.

The suggestion that this Frankenstein surgery which is only ever going to be relevant to the tiniest proportion of the population will contribute towards men being more involved in childcare is beyond risible.

Because not nearly enough is done for women who can't have babies. Or women who suffer from horrific health conditions and have it passed off and overlooked

Or men and children who suffer and due from horrific health conditions. Get back to me when everything else has been researched and cured and I'll still say no to this.

So - men are not women, So stop trying to gaslight us!

Men are not women.

@Smotheroffive If they've had surgery, or are in the process of waiting for surgery and it is no long functional because of treatment... then what is the problem?

Are we purely our biology? Or are we a little more than just our plumbing? There are women born without wombs, uterus, ovaries... women born with XY chromosomes, women who have hormone replacement therapy, women who have never experienced a period... none of these women are any less a woman.

BUT... you are still missing the real problem here. We are not oppressed because of transwomen... and transwomen face the same oppression.

I can see I am not making any difference to your bigoted views. This time I've changed my e-mail preferences so hopefully I shouldn't be called back here to reply to posts. I've got real battles to fight elsewhere online. I only came here to see if that newspaper article was correct or not... and was sad to find it true. Some of you need to look in the mirror because you really are contributing to male violence.

Please do not forget who the real fight is against.

The more men are involved in raising children, the more that bias goes away because the stigma we put on women (even childless women) due to their perceived childcare commitments will gradually lesson. When dad is the SAHP, or when dad is the one who gets the phone call to pick the child up from school, it becomes a parent issue and not a mum issue. There are great initiatives in place to assist this but it has to also be organic

I don't know how you can type that with a straight face and suggest uterine transplants for men would play any part in achieving this. For your information raising my son was a parent issue - not a mum issue. You also seem confused about the meaning of stigma and prejudice / bias.

Like Smotheroffive, I'm over and out.

@OccaionalKite transwomen are not men

It's NOT transphobic to say that babies shouldn't be used as medical experiments and that a male body is not physically equipped to gestate a foetus.

it's reality. People who disagree might want to educate themselves about what successfully carrying a pregnancy entails. It's far more than just a working uterus. It will never be possible without subjecting a foetus to a cocktail of drugs and would therefore be highly unethical.

Some people just have to accept that they can't always get what they want 🤷

Seriously though- this is not possible. Not sure why a surgeon would say this. It doesn’t work. The womb itself is just an organ but to sustain a pregnancy your body needs to produce the right hormones. It’s just not going to work where the body is male. This surgeon sounds insane.

For fucks sake “- For erasing the stigma that comes with being a woman of childbearing age and all the unconcsious bias that hampers career advancement that comes with it. “

Really? Have you missed what feminism has been fighting for? But let’s not actually create a fair and just society by removing the cage of patriarchy rather let’s teach women thier place by giving men wombs. Honestly I just can’t even fathom this being the answer to the sex pay gap

No woman here is contributing to male violence, Jazzbunny. They are doing just fine on their own. And you still don’t see why we might not want that in women’s spaces, and why babies should not be used as a science experiment for men who just can’t bear to be left out of anything.

Quite the handmaiden.

That said, I do stand by what I said. If there were a MEDICALLY SAFE (sorry for caps, don’t know to bold), way for this to happen, I would see it as a good thing

There's a world of difference between medically safe and all of the incredible processes that go into growing a baby. We don't even truly know how it all happens so how it would be possible to replicate it I don't know! Just think of how anything is achieved too, through experimentation...how on earth could it be ethical? I'm a bit offended that men having children could be seen as a solution to workplace inequalities. How about more flexible working for everyone?

Men can get as involved as they want in child rearing NOW. They don’t need implanted wombs to do that.

Well it can’t be tested because people will die. So it will remain a pipe dream for those deluded enough to think it will work.

So seeing as carrying a child is such a simple thing that it just requires implantation of someone else’s organ, where is the research into trans men producing sperm and actually fathering a child? If it’s possible for a male to carry a baby then surely that must be equally possible?

And why just trans women? Surely if it's possible for a male to carry a child then why can't men too? There is literally no difference biologically, aside from a few hormones that have nothing to do with being able to be pregnant. Except some people have some delusion that they are more likely to be successful because.. why? Can this be explained in a scientific, logical manner without resorting to "because they are women" or "transphobia"?

Because something is possible doesn't mean it will happen, it's a very rare operation and they will be at the bottom of the list, unless live directed donations are possible (as with kidneys) then someone without need for theirs (eg me) could pass on our second hand one. Still highly unlikely.

Why aren’t transmen demanding cadaver penis transplants? Wouldn’t it be easier to just transplant a cock and balls rather than fashion one out of a vagina?

I’m sure there are cases where men have had penises reattached after accidental amputation.

How many men do you reckon would be up for donating?

Why is it always about transwomen?

I think this is an important point. It would only be fair to consider cadaveric penis and testicle transplants. Penises have been reattached, John Wayne Bobbit had his reattached many years ago. And with the improvements in vascular surgery allowing for face and hand transplants I should imagine penis and testicles should be very much possible.
And then the possibility of the production of sperm? Or would that not work because of the different DNA? Worth looking at.
Except a lot of useful organ donation is from younger people who have died suddenly (car accidents etc) and I can't imagine mum and dad agreeing that their young son's meat and two veg is removed after his fatal motorcycle accident. And I can't imagine transmen being able to garner much sympathy for their lack of the above. But to be fair, it should be the same both ways, and if transwomen's deep psychological need for motherhood takes precedence over the health of a baby, then the deep psychological need for fatherhood in transmen should be treated the same way. And cadaveric penis and testicles transplants are much more realistic; they are, from what I can see, already technically possible.

Woah what a thread.

Oh gosh - I’m honestly not looking to upset people. I’m kind of at the point where I either disappear from the conversation or change my mind just to appease people.

@Divingintothis this has become an emotive subject for many and we do get many goady people. It does take some a while to stitch together the pieces and bigger picture of this. This subject needs the enormous application of critical thinking so please don't do either of the things you want to do; keep reading and learning. I hope you've begun to find answers.

Personally, my opinion is that it's a pointless waste of medical resources for men to carry children. It's also child abuse.

Jazzbunny needs to read a wack load of Miranda Yardley's writing, who is a trans identifying male. Also Seven Hex and Debbie Hayton. Miranda and Debbie are here. And then come back and try to tell us we are phobic and all the other slurs.

Wow so a surgeon is all for a trans person having a womb transplant...yet when asked my gynae about one ... I would not fit the criteria, I had a hysterectomy at 27..(31 now)... Wow this world had gone made