Hi, I'm Liz the Glitch! Ask me anything.

[glitchliz]

The thread I wrote about attending Posie Parker's panel on gender identity and social media has attracted a lot of attention, and I thought it might be good to establish more of a dialogue. Ask me anything!

Also, to get this one out of the way: my babysitting rates are £15/hr, plus flights, and I'll provide a clean CRB check 😂

What characteristics do you and I share that makes us both women, that we don't share with Tom Hanks, because he's a man?

Ooooh yes, I would like to know this too (much as I love Tom Hanks!)

What do I have in common with every other female on this planet, that I also have in common with you, but that I do not have in common with a man?

How's this?

Haha. Sneaky! Thank you!

CharlyAngelic

It's about being born into a sex class Not about your fertility within that class.

I've worn two on occasion mainly because I have one pair that won't really stay up unassisted and it seems a shame to throw them out just for that.
Gender politics aside, life is too short for that. Chuck the fuckers.

Are you surprised at the reception you’ve received?

Are you surprised that the nest of ‘anti-trans’, ‘no debate’, ‘no platform’, has fought hard (and not just here) to reinstate your thread so we could talk to you?

I’m guessing we are not what you were expecting.

CharlyAngelic

Calvinsmam Didn’t define women as those who have gestated, but of the sex class who gestate. I do hope the average level of reading comprehension on FWR doesn’t drop to that seen elsewhere on MN.

Have you ever been at a birth? (Apart from your own of course) If so, can you remember the point at which the gynecologist/midwife stuck their hand in the bag of marbles and pulled out the one that assigns the baby's gender?

I can't for the life of me remember the "assigning gender" part. I do remember the bit where the genitals were assessed and the sex was notified however. Perhaps it's done differently in the USA? Please tell.

Apologies to all .

Glad you came back liz

Apologies to all

No worries.

Thanks @Datun . I appreciate that ( just going back under my rock . )
I usually do not venture onto threads like this . Clearly, my reading comprehension is not good enough. I might be back if I improve. Bye for now, or for good. I might not reach acceptable standards.

I think people have been unfair to MN on this thread as the OP is a GF. And while they may not have broken rules on this chat they did threaten women with the photo. There are lot of people who do that sort of thing and MN would not give them the benefit of a webchat. other TRA are threatening to dox all of MN.

Now my question as we have you here Liz.:

Either "Woman is an adult human female" and female is defined by biological sex and being of the sex that carries babies has eggs etc.

Or Female is literally just who defines as a female.

The two things can't both be true.

So why should I let you redefine me to no longer be a woman when I already have to deal with womanhood daily?

CharlyAngelic

Stick with it. It's a sore point around these parts. Because the definition of woman is muddied endlessly by TRAs, and we have to get past all the 'is it if they have babies or not, what about the menopause, sidetracks.

Don't be worried about posting. This thread is probably a little different, because I suspect it will reach an impasse.

So if the two things can in no way both be true, your definition means I am not a woman. I don't feel a I have a gender, I would identify as "non binary" in today's youth's vernacular.

Now that would not change the fact that I have been raised as a woman, my opportunities have been hampered by womanhood (and girlhood) I was swayed against maths, science, etc. I have been pushed towards other options. My body is taboo because it is female. My periods have been spoken about in hushed voices. How do I fucking discuss those things without feminism? Feminism being the means with which to might misogyny against women? I can discuss those things or use the word women because people get offended?

How do I not get offended by you saying you "feel like a woman" when I can tell you 100% that I have no idea what that fucking means having never felt anything like it?

Why should I decide to let a tiny percentage of the population take the word that describes me and let you appropriate it?

Hahah CharlyAngelic it’s terrifying up here. I fuck up all the time. A lot. And at best get ignored. Don’t go though. Stay and learn and get brave again. Just listening is bloody amazing. Women rock!

As many, many others have asked: what is a woman? What characteristics make you and I women, but not Gordon Brown or Hugh Jackman? This really is at the heart of the debate.

If a woman is simply 'any human who wants other humans to treat them as/refer to them as a woman', then isn't the word completely meaningless? It's just going round in circles; "I want to be a woman but I don't want to/cannot define what womanhood actually is, because if I did that then I would be excluded". And if you don't want to define what the word 'woman' means, why would you want to be one? What is appealing about "becoming" something if you can't even identify what that something is? The idea that someone can change from a man into a woman, without actually undergoing any changes at all just removes all meaning from the word "woman". Why not just campaign to end the classification of the sexes altogether and we'll just have "humans"? That's a genuine question. It's very difficult to pin down the TRA stance in this regard.

Cross posted see lol Datun said it better 👍

Yes, it boils down to what are the characteristics of a woman?

it's an oldie but a goodie

Do you accept that women are oppressed because of their biology? Do you understand why it is problematic to try and claim membership of an oppressed group of people, who themselves have had no choice in their oppression?

The song ‘common people’ by pulp comes to mind.

Liz, what would you say to intersex people, who are a) not trans, apart from a tiny minority, and b) tired of their existence being used to support the argument that there are more than two sexes/"genders" c) their language ("assigned m/f at birth") being co-opted by people whom they have nothing to do with?

😊

It's true people do get a little tetchy sometimes because of the many windup merchant we get.

But of course, the whole idea is to attract new people.

Sorry, that was girldownunder

Do you realise the if self ID remove the medical element of Gender Disphoria the people with it are going to lose their already very inadequate but much needed mental health support?

Self-identification for the purposes of changing your birth certificate, driving license, NI details, passport etc is an administrative thing which would make many people's lives easier. Gender dysphoria is not quite orthogonal to the problem of having up-to-date documents, but it's close - and why would making things easier to change your details affect whether or not your GP, which for dysphoric people should be involved at the beginning of the process, refers you for mental health services?

Do you think it is possible for a person to be born with no gender identity whatsoever who just perceives themself to be their consciousness +personality occupying their body?

If your answer is "that's non-binary", does that mean non-binary people have no gender identity whatsoever or a particular gender identity that we should refer to as "non-binary"?