Jean Hatchet, new blog post

[SugarPlumFairy99]

jeanhatchet.blogspot.com/2019/01/why-i-wont-be-standing-up-for-women.html

This blog post from Jean is eye-opening. Working alongside anti-abortion, hard right groups undermines decades of feminism.

Shame on Posie. I agree with Jean, I will also be sitting down for women.

Needmoresleep

I have done a significant amount, both professionally and on a voluntary basis. But it's nowhere near what Jean has done. I am in awe of the awareness she has raised. Posie, not so much. I honestly don't think she has furthered the cause much at all and I think she has turned people away from it. I don't see them in the same category in any way and it is clear from her post that Jean doesn't either anymore.

The genius of any slave system is found in the dynamics which isolate slaves from each other, obscure the reality of a common condition, and make united rebellion against the oppressor inconceivable.

Andrea Dworkin

Funkyfunkybeat12 If you listen to the podcast that Meghan Murphy published you will hear Posie explain that it was the vacuum created by cowardly and misogynistic Labour Councils that gave space for Robinson to exploit that vacuum for his own ends. There is absolutely no indication in any way that there is any support for Robinson. It is simply an analysis of Robinson's ability to exploit that situation.

Funky As I said, I have plenty of professional experience with abortion, including for fetal abnormality so I don't need a lecture from you. There are people, and there has been a recent thread, who believe a woman has a right to choose, right up to term. I disagree.
Save your lecture for the family of a woman who died after coming to the UK from a catholic EU country for a "weekend break" involving a late termination.

In contrast I know people like Funky, always happy to lecture on right-think.

I do apologise for having principles and not wanting to tolerate buddying up to groups of people who think I am disgusting and unnatural. Perhaps if you have lived your life conforming to the heterosexual ideal, it is hard for you to see how offensive what Posie does and says is.
I think someone like Kathleen Stock, a lesbian feminist who presents her argument in a reasoned and respectful way makes so much more impact than someone yelling that trans women have penises.
It's not lecturing about right-think to have principles and to stick to them. The far right is given enough space as it is. They are not on the side of women, even if they want to quash the rights of trans people.

Emergency transcript.

What Posie said about TR and grooming gangs in the Meghan Murphy interview:

[38:23]

PP: ... some of the stuff about Tommy Robinson, now I say in the tweets I think he probably is a racist and a yob right, I think that's enough.

MM: Who's Tony Robinson?

PP: Tommy Robinson is ...

MM: Oh Tommy Robinson.

PP: Yeah. So he's ... I think he is an opportunist and I think there's probably some really awful things to say about him. However, that's my gut feeling. However, all the things that he is accused of, I have yet to see conclusive evidence. That doesn't mean that I don't think he probably is a racist yob, that means that I'm not willing to commit myself 100% to that, and I raised a question, I sort of said, you know, according to the mainstream media I'm a hateful bigot, so we have to ask questions of the narratives around people and who they serve. So this isn't saying that [inaudible] Robinson is such a bad thing because his name is like ... it is like, if you utter his name without saying how much you hate him you are basically considered a supporter. So I just said, you know, we're supposed to think this and this and this about Robinson but people think this about me, so I think we need to question who it serves. Why is this insignificant man being given such significance? It doesn't make any sense. He's just like a mouthy yob. I don't - you know, why is he able to be blamed for ... loads of stuff going on? And I'm not saying his supporters aren't awful as well, it was just I was raising a question because I - the scales had fallen from my eyes about the left. I'm questioning everything, I want to know why we're supposed to think that.

MM: Yeah, I mean I don't like - so I just googled Tommy Robinson because I wasn't sure who he was, so I guess he's involved in politics and he's called a far right activist? In the UK. Yeah, I mean I guess - so I don't know anything about him so I can't speak to him, but I think that part of the problem is that often we're expected to take positions on people that we don't really know much about, so we're supposed to accept what we read on the internet. So, for example if you were labeled a white supremacist then we would have to hate you because you're a white supremacist, without actually looking into those accusations or, you know, asking you what you actually think about racism and I find it really frustrating as well because I would probably say something similar to you, it's not that I don't believe that this person might be a white supremacist, or a horrible person, or a bigot or whatever, but I do want to know for myself and I do want to explore people's views for myself before deciding to label them or write them off, and that's something that is really unacceptable to a lot of leftist activists these days.

PP: The thing with Tommy Robinson, the reason he is even of any note is whilst everybody - and I'm sure there was - and in fact I'm assured by women on the ground there was some work going on, on the ground in places like Rotherham and Telford and everywhere that grooming gangs existed, there were women fighting it, right? However, it didn't make it to the mainstream media until massive great big ruptures. And so what that did - and there was a culture of, 'let's not be racist', you know, so when these - and also 'these girls are losers and they probably want to be prostitutes at 15'. So all of those tied in together left a gaping hole for somebody to come in and say, well, 90% of all the men that are grooming - that, you know, that we've arrested for grooming are Pakistani, or Muslim, or Somali, you know, but they're all Muslims, so let's talk about Muslim grooming gangs, and that - If you can't talk about these things you leave them open for people with ill motives to talk about them and make it their cause, and that's exactly what happened. So I've just continued to sort of say, well, you know, it's the fault of the left. If they - if that police force had dealt with those grooming gangs from the off, there would be no room for anybody to capitalise on that void.
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TL;DR: Posie does not support Tommy Robinson fgs

There are people, and there has been a recent thread, who believe a woman has a right to choose, right up to term. I disagree.

But abortions up to term are carried out. Except they are on fetuses with abnormalities.
Also, in countries where abortion is permitted up to term, virtually no women do have a late abortion- only in exceptional circumstances.

@Funkyfunkybeat12 (or anyone else)

I've heard so much that Posie supports Tommy Robinson, but haven't seen it. Can someone show me what she said? (Sorry to derail, I'm just trying to figure out what I think)

'The cause' or 'your cause'?

I suspect we would disagree on practically everything. But I, as a believer in a small state, will disagree with lots of people here.

But I simply dont accept tgat men shpuld be able to self ID as women, and I dont accept that I am not allowed to talk about it.

If you feel I, and others should not be allowed a voice because we dont share your narrow world view, you can take your #nodebate stance and get lost. It is a real pity that some women are so quick to judge and jump on others.

I wish this thread hadn't been posted. Twitter is vey depressing reading just now.

Pencils she has tweeted support before. It's not just this podcast.

If you listen to the podcast that Meghan Murphy published you will hear Posie explain that it was the vacuum created by cowardly and misogynistic Labour Councils that gave space for Robinson to exploit that vacuum for his own ends. There is absolutely no indication in any way that there is any support for Robinson. It is simply an analysis of Robinson's ability to exploit that situation.
Thank you for clarifying - that was my understanding of what Posie said too.

#nodebate? FFS. I am saying I do not and cannot support any movement that aligns itself with the far right.

Funkyfunkybeat12 "she has tweeted support before. It's not just this podcast."

Please provide conclusive evidence .. and I do not mean tweets taken out of their context of any thread.

Men often react to women’s words—speaking and writing—as if they were acts of violence; sometimes men react to women’s words with violence. So we lower our voices. Women whisper. Women apologize. Women shut up. Women trivialize what we know. Women shrink. Women pull back. Most women have experienced enough dominance from men—control, violence, insult, contempt—that no threat seems empty.

Andrea Dworkin

I may not always agree in every act or position, but I do admire any woman who has the courage not to lower her voice. Both Posie & Jean have my respect. I however think the blog and this thread are very counter productive.

But abortions up to term are carried out. Except they are on fetuses with abnormalities. Also, in countries where abortion is permitted up to term, virtually no women do have a late abortion- only in exceptional circumstances.

And you can thank the US right for confusing that issue but using the phrase "partial birth abortion" if a doctor has to terminate a late pregnancy to save the mother's life, and expel a non viable fetus.

It's not that they want mothers to die. That would screw up the statistics. They just don't care if mothers die as long as they have a slogan which keeps women from speaking up.

The US right isn't the Tories. The US right is a more professional and efficient version of UKIP.

Please provide conclusive evidence .. and I do not mean tweets taken out of their context of any thread.

Well, sorry, I cannot provide conclusive evidence of her exact state of mind. I don't see the appeal personally and I am willing to bet that in a couple of years she will be firmly embedded on the far-right under the guise of promoting free speech. Just like that other 'say what I think' advocate, Katie Hopkins.

Thing is that when you declare yourself willing to tolerate right-wingers, you alienate women who are LGB, women of colour- basically anyone who is already marginalised. We find it hard to understand how you can claim to be working in our best interests, yet support groups who openly hate us. So we can't put all that aside and focus on some greater good, because it's not a greater good for us.

Thank you for the transcript Pencils I'd assumed it was something like that.

I hate this way (which I suspect is deliberate) that people are trying to force women into tribes like this ... If you are gender critical then you share some gender critical views with scary right wing Christian conservatives therefore you must support said right wing Christian conservatives.

It is pretty impossible not to share some views with someone you wholeheartedly disagree with on other things.

Can we please try and be a bit more grown up and less tribal about things?

I disagree that the thread is counterproductive, or shouldn't have been posted. This is, after all, a feminism board and we're discussing feminism.

Jean, who has worked tirelessly to highlight DV issues shouldn't be discarded. Only commenting on the Tommy Robinson part of the post is disingenuous and missing the Heritage Foundation link. A think tank that openly wants to take women back by 50 years. I completely agree with Funky.

My personal view is that no one who wants to advance or protect women's rights should have any association with them.

Funkyfunkybeat12 you don’t speak for all lesbians or WOC, many support Posie.

Funkyfunkybeat12 "Thing is that when you declare yourself willing to tolerate right-wingers, you alienate women who are LGB, women of colour- basically anyone who is already marginalised. We find it hard to understand how you can claim to be working in our best interests, yet support groups who openly hate us. So we can't put all that aside and focus on some greater good, because it's not a greater good for us."

Please expand on this because your statement here seems to imply that white, heterosexual women are "right wing".

TL;DR: Posie does not support Tommy Robinson fgs

Thank you for posting that transcript. In the current atmosphere where women can be labelled hateful bigots just for mildly commenting on biological facts I think it's important to see actual words used before blindly believing accusations. I see nothing there that suggests Posie supports TR, I think she makes some good points.

Funky I think it's very silly indeed to dismiss Posie's campaigning for women and free speech. Work that has got her arrested, doxed and targeted by people who want her to shut up. Do you really want her to shut up? Really? You and I might disagree with her on various things but I hope she keeps shouting whatever her views are from the rooftops.

Who, apart from fronting this campaign, has done very very little to call herself a radical feminist.

So what? Only radical feminist women are entitled to speak now?

Perhaps if you have lived your life conforming to the heterosexual ideal, it is hard for you to see how offensive what Posie does and says is.

Do you think only lesbians should speak? Or that lesbians all take the same POV? I think that all women should say whatever they like on this topic.

I've never seen Posie start posts with racist undertones on these boards. Which threads?

She doesn't support Robinson, as the emergency transcript shows (Pencils, thank you). You refer to tweets. Where are they?

Many of us agree with Jordan Peterson on free speech. With David Davis MP that feminist voices should be heard. This does not make us supporters of everything they say or do. Nuanced views exist.

I'm so sick of people being accused of wrong think by association.

Jean has well-reasoned, principled, strong views and is standing by them. Good for her. Posie is taking her own position. Good for her too. We don't need to pick a side. We don't need to agree with both of them on everything. Tribalism weakens us.

Please expand on this because your statement here seems to imply that white, heterosexual women are "right wing".

Then I suggest that you read it again because it suggests no such thing.
I am saying that these right-wing groups are generally anti-women, but especially anti lesbian and bisexual women and women of colour. So I am not saying that white het women are right wing. But I can't accept the argument that I should suck up the fact that these groups fundamentally hate lesbians and bi women and WOC. It may be easier to do that if you are a white heterosexual, because these issues don't directly touch you. But how can I think it's okay to form links with groups who call me unnatural and want my 'lifestyle' eradicated?