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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Jean Hatchet, new blog post

999 replies

SugarPlumFairy99 · 25/01/2019 14:38

jeanhatchet.blogspot.com/2019/01/why-i-wont-be-standing-up-for-women.html

This blog post from Jean is eye-opening. Working alongside anti-abortion, hard right groups undermines decades of feminism.

Shame on Posie. I agree with Jean, I will also be sitting down for women.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
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Iused2BanOptimist · 28/01/2019 10:46

I'm sorry about that Jean. Thanks

Talith · 28/01/2019 10:56

I follow you on twitter Jean and it was primarily for the work you do to highlight DV - it is really valuable work and I hope you feel you can carry on tweeting about that. Twitter is bloody brilliant for getting the word out through shares etc. It's just appalling for debate, disagreement or discussion!

WeRiseUp · 28/01/2019 10:59

Glad to here it isn't a permanent thing Jean.

It's okay to take a break. It's all a bit intense at the moment and twitter is a frustrating platform.

Wishing you all the best and looking forward to more tweets about your rides for murdered women when you feel ready.
Flowers

LangCleg · 28/01/2019 11:00

Jean - I hope you feel able to re-activate at some point but you must do whatever is best for you. We all love you here and you have as much right as Posie, or any of us, to draw red lines and set boundaries as you see fit. I will continue to send donations to Ride for Murdered Women. Thank you for everything: the rides, your voice, your indefatigability.

Flowers
WeRiseUp · 28/01/2019 11:04

Hear

Oxytocindeficient · 28/01/2019 11:05

I’m sorry to hear you’ve been attacked on Twitter. It’s not a nice space IMO. Your work is important. So is Posies.

I stand with both of you and all women fighting for our freedoms. Solidarity.

( PS maybe someone else on twitter could publicise your rides if you want to stay off )

Bowlofbabelfish · 28/01/2019 11:15

The more women who come out and express concerns about TRA ideology, genderism and self ID the better. If women from the left, and the right, who consider themselves feminist, and who dont come out and raise concerns the better.

If women of many different stripes are saying the same thing it becomes harder to dismiss us on this one issue We will have different opinions on many other things and that’s Ok. There is plenty of room for that.

Divide and conquer is a powerful tactic.

Dragon3 · 28/01/2019 11:15

She says "no one owns me" and she's right. She's somebody I deeply admire and will support wherever she sets her lines.

I said this about you upthread and feel the same now. Thank you for everything you do.
Flowers

ToeToToe · 28/01/2019 11:21

Jean, I admire both you and posie so much. I will/do support posie, but I also totally respect your decision to draw your boundaries where you wish Thanks

Oxytocindeficient · 28/01/2019 11:23

Divide and conquer is a powerful tactic.

Oh indeed it is.

Bubonicpanic · 28/01/2019 11:25

You too are a powerful women Jean H.

All women are affected by abusive genderism. All women.

R0wantrees · 28/01/2019 11:31

I said my piece. I stand by it. But the relentless attacks are too much.

JeanHatchet they are.
Your work for vulnerable women & girls has been and is so important.
Take good care of you.
Flowers

Needmoresleep · 28/01/2019 11:31

I have been away from this thread for a while. In part because it got me thinking.

What on earth is going on? And what do we do about it?

I am goal oriented. I suspect Posie is too. I respect those who stand by their principles. Though despair when people start suggesting they are true feminists especially when they go on to complain that they are marginalised.

So what is happening? Why did this all suddenly appear, and all over the Anglophone world?

I assume that various prominent transgender people, perhaps networked via medical (the sort of conference Susie Green attended in the autumn) or academic links, started discussing how they would achieve greater acceptance. Each reviewed the situation in their own country, and in the UK priorities were a legal lobbying base (TELI - formed in 2016), a societal lobbying base (get Stonewall - with its strong reputation and its massive reach to add the "T", which it did in 2015), and a political lobbying base (Stephen Whittle apparently says they have Labour in the bag. The tweet seems to have disappeared but earlier this week whilst complaining about the appointment of Ann Henderson to lead Labout LGBT, LM seemed to be saying that the Tory LGBT were far more helpful, specifically mentioning David TC Davies as a common concern).

Encouraged by the example of the way the origional Gender Recognition Act passed without comment, the tactic seems to have been to try to effect changes by using networks, rather than opening up public debate. Not least because a Stonewall survey suggested that 83% of the population were opposed. Plus the tricky fact that the original Act only involved 5,000 transexuals whereas Government estimates for those coming under the wider "trans" umbrella and likely to self-ID are 200,000 to 500,000.

Luckily in the UK a mix of experienced feminists, some articulate right of centre journalists, some brave individuals like Posie and Glinner, plus ordinary MN mums (thank you Justine and the mods - one day I would love to hear the full story) have woken up to the dangers and the #nodebate tactic and the snowball is rolling down the hill gaining volume and momentum. Oddly groups that might have been expected to be in the forefront, like conservative religious groups, do not seem to have been particularly visible, though I noted a protest by Muslim mums outside a Birmingham primary school yesterday.

America is different. I dont know that much, but it looks as if Obama sold the pass, and it has been difficult for GC liberals to find a platform, with the only effective voice belonging to the Christian right.

I assume:

  1. In neither country, nor in Canada, Australia and NZ, do TRAs want the 83% (and I assume the proportion of Americans who are sceptical of the concept of lady-dick is reasonably high) to wake up, find their voice and start opposing.
  1. We need to work together, or at least in parallel. Some will feel comfortable making "Hands across the Aisle" arrangements where the common goal is identified and areas of irreconcilable disagreement are parked - others wont. Its fine. People will have a range of concerns: safeguarding; free speech; medical ethics; social contagion; religious. All fine. The depth and diversity of our voices is our strength.
  1. Tactics are different if you lobbying for something, rather than trying to protect what you have. The TRAs have, via Stonewall, the Democratic Party etc, made astonishing progess both within national and international organisations. Sunlight is our ally. There are major concerns. People understand this. The more brave people who speak up, the more others will feel empowered to do so. (Which means I think Posie made the right call, which in no way negates Jean's personal views.)
  1. Things will be difficult. TRA tactics to close down debate will come close to bullying. We speak up, we speak out. And we recognise that our diversity is our strength.

One real positive for me to to get to know (on line mainly) people I would not normally come across, and with whom I may not have much in common, but whom I really admire. RoseofDawn, Maniacmagpie, David TC Davies, Sandydrawsbadly, Jean Hatchet, Venice, James Kirkup, Rosa Freedman, Fionn Orlander, HarrytheOwl and more, might now form my ideal dinner party guest list, with an expectation of intelligent, interesting but respectful discussion.

FWIW, I think the free speech angle will wake up most people, and the really big peak-trans moment will come at the next Olympics. (I think the TRA movement has scored a bit of an own goal on sport - people understand women don't compete against men and admire top women athletes, but won't be interested in seeing transwomen dominate.) I think Posie and others are right to go to the US now and demonstrate that ordinary women can speak up. Even if the only available platforms are shared with the political right - so be it. They can agree on this issue as affects everyone.

WeRiseUp · 28/01/2019 11:34

Divide and conquer is a powerful tactic

It really is. I remember when austerity hit and everyone had to start competing for the same reduced portion of funding or close down - leaving vulnerable people at sea. It doesn't make those who could be allies feel so fondly about one another and they soon need to resist doing the oppressors work for them.

There is room to keep personal integrity and make a stand when it is important but then get 'back the plough' and focus on the end we need to work towards - women's liberation from male domination. Others need time to process.

WeRiseUp · 28/01/2019 11:38

Great post Needmoresleep

Oxytocindeficient · 28/01/2019 11:41

Needmoresleep

Some really good points there, I largely agree.

I do think we are more powerful together. That doesn’t mean I think everyone should have the same boundaries or limits, but that we try and refrain from criticising others when theirs differ from our own. So we can work on different things together without shutting each other out completely if, like in this instance, one of us does something we don’t want to join in on. We can wish each other well and then unite on something else.

I’ve learnt a lot from this conversation, from all of you. Thanks everyone.

womanformallyknownaswoman · 28/01/2019 11:49

It must have been a dreadful experience for you to go through Jean to be so invalidated in your concerns. You did what you saw fit for you and I commend that.
Let’s hope your concerns are addressed at some point. I imagine the huge differences in political and legal jurisdictions between the UK n USA drive the decisions that are being made eg the Federal law change (that was put through by Obama and which if passed will erase sex) is a huge deal and one the Democrats are supporting :(

I keep saying that communication is key and when neglected/ abused by entitlement, is the source of many relationship breakdowns.

Self care is the key and you are doing that. I said earlier in the thread I think that survivors of serious intimate partner violence have a unique perspective and often value system if they survive as they have been fucked over by the abuser and then again by the combined systemic failure of the various services that enable and add to the continued the burden carried by the victims. When one discloses things get worse not better as the societal response is still hostile. I think this divide between those who have walked this path and those who haven’t can lead to splits - it’s not just a freedom of speech issue for them but a profound lived experience of being scapegoated and harassed at every turn by the patriarchy and abuse of power.

You have a different starting point from that of Posie and perhaps many of the activists. We survivors aren’t consulted enough by non- survivors and we can quickly be trampled underfoot by the rush for action, with consultation and respect unintentionally sacrificed. It would be great if all activists learned to make time and space for detracting voices and not ride roughshod over them in the rush for action/ or knee jerk response to criticism from within one’s team/side.

We all must learn how to agree to differ but not sever relationships conpletely. Non survivors must make time for survivors or there runs the real risk of abuse of power and privilege unintentionally within the GC women’s movement as we recently saw with Lisa M and now here.

It’s all good - time will tell and heal and for now I wish you rest and respite. You do not deserve attacks and your self care must come first. What a great move to come off Twitter. Flowers

DubBeGoodToMe · 28/01/2019 12:11

JeanHatchet Look after yourself. I have huge respect for your stance. You’ve always centred working class and unheard women in your work, and you’ve always been about the whole gamut of feminist issues, not just self-ID. I’m not surprised you’re tired. Please don’t allow yourself to be pushed out and silenced; I hope in time you’ll come back. Flowers

Howdoidothis4eva · 28/01/2019 12:15

@Jeanhatchet, I hope that you're doing ok. I'm a big admirer of what you've achieved for women.

I'm sorry that some people haven't been able to respect your boundaries/point of view though.

I think that it's our differences that should make us stronger. We need to stand together (as others have said). There should be room for everyone.
I don't have to agree with everyone 100% to collaborate on something we do agree on, but everyone will have their line that they're not prepared to cross, and this should be respected.

Everyone should respect that others have their own moral code and that there may be compromises they can't make; this is no reason to turn on them, or vilify them.

As a previous poster has said: we are not a homogenous unit.

We need to do better, or we may lose this war on women.

CandidPeel · 28/01/2019 12:28

need more sleep Great post

We speak up, we speak out. And we recognise that our diversity is our strength

Flowers to Posie and to Jean, and to the women in the US whose situation and tactics are different from the UK.

I think if we are arguing (as the "Women Ask Questions" survey found) that 81% of people in the UK do not think that a person with a penis can be a woman, then we have to recognise that this is a diverse group of people. We are not going to see eye-to-eye with many of them on many things.

userschmoozer · 28/01/2019 12:34

Jeanhatchet Much respect to you Flowers

OvaHere · 28/01/2019 12:36

Great post Needsmoresleep

I just want to add that Twitter and the spats that happen on there are not the be all and end all. I understand that if you spend a lot of time there it feels that way but 99% of the population all never be aware of an argument between feminist women that played out on the site.

The real life stuff whether it's riding bikes for women or putting up billboards does much more to shine a light on things we consider important.

There is a bit of a backlash brewing against Twitter in general and I believe in the future less importance is going to be placed on what happens there as more people wise up to how toxic it can be.

Oxytocindeficient · 28/01/2019 12:39

OvaHere I hope you’re right about Twitter

RepealTheGRA · 28/01/2019 12:57

Jean Flowers

R0wantrees · 28/01/2019 13:00

current thread about the dressing of statues throughout the UK with T.Shirts etc 'Woman=adult human female

Gallery here: resistersunited.org/gallery/

update from MenstruatorExtraordinaire
"Woman Adult Human Female is #StandingForWomen
#WomenStandUp
#ReSistersUnited

If anyone is on Twitter please tweet the hashtags above and retweet all the photos. It was bloody cold last night and a lot of fabulous feminists were out on the streets hanging Adult Human Female T Shirts on female statues."

Hopefully people will share widely and talk about this.

thread:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3492261-Statues-throughout-the-UK-wearing-Woman-Adult-Human-Female-StandingForWomen-WomenStandUp-ReSistersUnited