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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Jean Hatchet, new blog post

999 replies

SugarPlumFairy99 · 25/01/2019 14:38

jeanhatchet.blogspot.com/2019/01/why-i-wont-be-standing-up-for-women.html

This blog post from Jean is eye-opening. Working alongside anti-abortion, hard right groups undermines decades of feminism.

Shame on Posie. I agree with Jean, I will also be sitting down for women.

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sueanddumplings · 26/01/2019 13:12

Personally I haven't donated to Posie because I find her views on issues such as race repugnant. I understand that you're not going to agree with everyone in this battle but she represents something that crosses a moral line as far as I'm concerned. Also there are plenty of other real feminists fighting this so I do have a choice where to send my money and I do like to make a decision on the character of the person or organisation I'm donating to. It's not just a case of I agree with them on GC issues so I'll happily ignore those other more unpleasant views that they hold. I have to admit also having concerns about this trip to America. I wonder how much this is about the fight against TRAs and how much it is about expanding the Posie 'brand'. It wouldn't surprise me in the slightest if she comes out of it with a gig writing for some right wing American website.

Danaquestionseverything · 26/01/2019 13:12

This shit. Right here. This is why I get so frustrated. This is why I have avoided declaring myself as a feminist in the past. We’re all women yeah? We’re all godamn unique, with our own opinions and ideas.

I really hate this left wing/right wing bullshit. This shit is how we’ve been divided since time immemorial. I’ve always danced to the beat of my own drum. I’ve never had any loyalty to any political party. I’m what’s considered a swinging voter here. Btw that doesn’t mean I’m a regular in fetlife. I’m basically centre, I have no party loyalty I see the good and bad in both. So yeah I basically am criticised from both sides. Fun times. My voting criteria is basically all politicians are greedy, self promoting, lying arseholes. And truly if you haven’t worked that out and still are stuck on party loyalty? No one can effin help you and you need to stop policing other women, who can believe whatever they want.

But if you still feel the need to try to correct women’s opinions - I do believe Humberside (or whatever it’s called) are advertising for recruitment. Have at it.

womanformallyknownaswoman · 26/01/2019 13:14

I think it would be great to have the conditions in place to enable so called “marginalised women” to have access to the resources needed so they can have a voice and be heard. So that they don’t suffer economic and educational disadvantage that leads to never having the opportunity to let moral principles guide their actions. For most in that group, that is simply not a choice open to them, demonised and kept at barely subsistence living by the “privileged policy makers” combined with AWAs. Their voices go unsought, unheard and unheeded - even in the rush to live by one’s principles.

The fight for the right to exist as a woman is a luxury when one fights for literal survival day in day out. Let’s not forget that. In the rush for publicity and getting more people on board, who is tending to this group and seeking their views?

It’s an unreasonable expectation that they have the same capacity to make themselves heard as someone who is healthy and comfortably off financially. Many survivors are in this marginalised category through no fault of their own. They keenly feel the injustice metered out to them from all sides, day in day out - today as every other day.

Jean’s points were well made. She knows this divide. My sense is she’s trying to draw attention to it by saying don’t throw out the baby with bath water. I think they deserve for us all to reflect upon how can we ensure that we aren’t using the disadvantaged for our own moral principles- that we aren’t unknowingly abusing the economic agency some have -replacing one set of jack boots with fashion boots 🥾

We need some under the umbrella to be facing not always to the public eye but back to this group - to ask them their views and what they need first.

womanformallyknownaswoman · 26/01/2019 13:16

And after coming to a consensus with this group, that this informs the way forward

RepealTheGRA · 26/01/2019 13:20

Danaquestionseverything

Totally agree with your post. Swing voter here too. Tribalism causes a lot of problems.

I said a long while ago that everybody was going to have to compromise on who they were prepared to form allegiances with over this issue, but also people were going to have to have hard lines on where they wouldn’t go. And that has to be an individual choice for every woman. And I support every women in the choices they make.

Danaquestionseverything · 26/01/2019 13:27

High five sister 🖐🏻 Yeah I probably ranted a little. But yeah I’ve been partying. #straya day. I still stand by what I said.

R0wantrees · 26/01/2019 13:28

Personally I haven't donated to Posie because I find her views on issues such as race repugnant. I understand that you're not going to agree with everyone in this battle but she represents something that crosses a moral line as far as I'm concerned

As you're no doubt aware Posie Parker can't respond on Mumsnet as she was targetted by TRAs here and received strikes resulting in her being banned.

'Repugnant' is a strong word and many of those who have such opinions about what are believed to be PP's views on race have been informed by deliberate twitter misquotes out of context by TRAs.

I'm not defending PP's views, nor would she want or need anyone to this. As others on the thread have repeatedly posted everyone is entitled to make their own decisions about what they decide to do to support women's rights and what actions they support.

Posie Parker has posted many videos here, people can listen to what she says and make up their own minds:

www.youtube.com/user/MrCrushingBlow/featured

AngryAttackKittens · 26/01/2019 13:28

Part of what's frustrating me about this thread is that as a Brit who it seems like wasn't involved in politics at all prior to this I'm not surprised Posie has no idea what the Heritage foundation is and what it represents in the US. I certainly wouldn't trust them, and would suggest she doesn't either. Does she, though? I don't know. She's significantly to the right of me, from what I can tell. I'd debate Jordan Peterson, but I don't like him either.

I think this is going to be the nastiest, most confusing political battle of our lifetimes, and I don't think women turning on each other is going to make that any easier. We're stuck between at least 2 different groups of men, neither of which have our best interests at heart. All we really have is each other, and we can't rely on the men on either side to have our backs, with a few rare exceptions. I disagree with right wing women on abortion, women's role in the family...pretty much everything really. But a right wing woman can understand the visceral fear I would feel when confronted with a male in a space where I'm naked and vulnerable, and most left wing men can't. There are points on which we can connect, and others where we can't and it's not worth even trying. Ultimately any alliance will be very much time limited and single issue. I assume everyone on both sides knows that.

R0wantrees · 26/01/2019 13:37

I think this is going to be the nastiest, most confusing political battle of our lifetimes, and I don't think women turning on each other is going to make that any easier. We're stuck between at least 2 different groups of men, neither of which have our best interests at heart. All we really have is each other, and we can't rely on the men on either side to have our backs, with a few rare exceptions

What is also clear is that both groups of men will seek to use women who are standing up for heir rights and for safeguarding chidren to gain power or leverage against the other group of males.

This has been evident on the board in recent weeks when a number of males with specific political intentions have been joining discussions. Their focus is not women's rights and safeguarding.

Its about power, just as it ever was.

RepealTheGRA · 26/01/2019 13:40

What is also clear is that both groups of men will seek to use women who are standing up for heir rights and for safeguarding chidren to gain power or leverage against the other group of males.

Oh I do always like you posts! Rowan Smile

AngryAttackKittens · 26/01/2019 13:41

As Bewilderness once said, in the game men play against each other women are not fellow players, we are the ball. This remains true regardless of the men's political affiliations.

JessicaJonesJacket · 26/01/2019 13:42

Differences of opinion shouldn't be treated like a tragedy. Of course the TRAs are going to try to create panic around it but feminism has always been bigger than one person.
I have the utmost respect for Jean. Both for her work and for being open about why she changed her mind on this trip. Flowers
Less so for the posters who reappear every time there's an issue like this, to complain about how ineffective feminists are. They're as transparent as the TRAs.

Oxytocindeficient · 26/01/2019 13:43

Just wanted to say thanks for the responses to my previous comment xx

BeUpStanding · 26/01/2019 13:47

In the podcast with MM Posie said she got involved in politics after the 2015 general election, when she was shocked a Tory majority government got in so she joined a local Labour party women's group. Increasing numbers of men who identified as women joined the group, she was shocked at their typically male behaviour and at how the women in the group enabled it. That was what sparked her journey into women's rights activism.

JessicaJonesJacket · 26/01/2019 13:47

R0wantrees Jean protected her tweets for a reason. I don't think it's appropriate to post a protected tweet on a public forum unless you've asked Jean's permission to do so?

NotTerfNorCis · 26/01/2019 13:49

If I knew someone who claimed to be a feminist but opposed abortion, I'd ask, how are you a feminist? And if she said she was for instance supporting girls' rights to education and political representation in a developing country, I'd say, fair enough. There are lots of perspectives in feminism. Isn't enforcing Western values onto other contexts pretty much the definition of 'imperialism' and 'white feminism'?

AngryAttackKittens · 26/01/2019 13:53

Also I think we need to be realistic about the fact that no one person can speak effectively to everyone. Jean speaks my language, politically, but her approach isn't going to reach everyone. Posie speaks effectively to a different set of people, with some overlap. Meghan Murphy a different group again. Glinner another one, if we're including male allies. Ideally there will be lots of different people with different approaches all putting across the same basic message that humans can't change sex and pretending that they can is a very bad idea.

Danaquestionseverything · 26/01/2019 13:55

AAK I see what your saying here and I can understand your frustration. Especially when different women (without an established feminist background) are given a lot of media opportunities.

She’s not “media groomed” and she will at times fuck it up. But I don’t think we should diminish that she will have a certain value to the average “June Blow” and ultimately that connection will help boost our voices. Because perhaps her naivety in political life (frustrating as it may be) is how she connects with the people in the street. Ultimately that’s how we’ll win this. Numbers.

R0wantrees · 26/01/2019 13:58

I don't think it's appropriate to post a protected tweet on a public forum unless you've asked Jean's permission to do so?

JessicaJonesJacket She did, yes and as I said she has to do this periodically and has discussed the reasons for this on her blog. You clearly aren't aware of them or of Jean Hatchet.

Your faux concern is either naive or a backhanded way of attempting to silence Jean and implying that I am not posting in good faith.

LangCleg · 26/01/2019 14:00

What is also clear is that both groups of men will seek to use women who are standing up for heir rights and for safeguarding chidren to gain power or leverage against the other group of males.

Preach.

LangCleg · 26/01/2019 14:01

Ultimately that’s how we’ll win this. Numbers.

Yes. And ultimately, free speech as a topic will speak to men (and women) who don't consider themselves feminist.

birdsdestiny · 26/01/2019 14:03

I see Jordan Peterson's name thrown around here as evidence of women's wrongthink. I agree with JP on some of the things he says about free speech and disagree with many many of his views on women and feminism. But what is the difference between him and those in the lib dems and labour party who think it's progress for women to be paid to be wanked into. If posie had shared a platform with the lib dems ( unlikely I knowGrin) would we be calling for her head. Why not. For me the difference between pro lifers and those who think prostitution is fine and dandy, is negligible. I think it may have come as a shock to those of us including myself who viewed ourselves as left-wing how much the left hate us. And not just on the GC issue. People have talked about throwing certain groups of women under the bus if we side with right , what the fuck do you think the left are doing. We talk to them all or we fall, but don't think for one minute that either side is any less dan gerous than the other.

R0wantrees · 26/01/2019 14:03

I don't think it's appropriate to post a protected tweet on a public forum

Its not a protected tweet, Jean has protected her twitter account so that only those already following her can see it and interact with her. Many people do this from time to time .

Dragon3 · 26/01/2019 14:08

Catching up on the thread.

Making the serious accusation of racism and not producing any evidence isn't a good look. People keep talking about tweets and MN threads and then disappearing.

I'm still mystified as to why a male NHS doctor is so preoccupied with monitoring women chatting on Mumsnet. It's so random.

Neither Jean nor Posie expect women to follow them or do what they are told. They take different positions and get on with it. Good for them.

Thanks for the reminder about Ride for Murdered Women Lang. This has been a good thread, started by Jean's post. Maybe some of us are able to throw a few coins in the bucket at this point.

Danaquestionseverything · 26/01/2019 14:09

Absolutely LangCleg that’s what caught my attention. Well, the Rose McGowan debacle too .., but maybe the less said about that the better 😔. Disappointed.