Jean Hatchet, new blog post

[SugarPlumFairy99]

jeanhatchet.blogspot.com/2019/01/why-i-wont-be-standing-up-for-women.html

This blog post from Jean is eye-opening. Working alongside anti-abortion, hard right groups undermines decades of feminism.

Shame on Posie. I agree with Jean, I will also be sitting down for women.

Oh Her, that is indeed a weighty decision. What a pontificating, pompous, pompadoured ass he is.

Let’s not forget that it’s the Tories who want(ed) to implement GRA reform... interesting where people make their alliances, isn’t it?

Not every woman who has concerns about elements of the trans agenda is a feminist. Nor do they need to be.

This.

You're going to have to convince half the population - who are men. The vast majority won't be feminist.

And as for gender critical feminists - they really are few and far between. It's not an easy concept to get your head around. And even if you get it intellectually, most people don't give a fuck.

As far as I'm aware, Posie's main beef is free speech. Like Jordan Peterson's. He isn't a feminist. But I love it when he refuses to toe the right-think line. Whilst profoundly disagreeing with his ideas about women.

One of the reasons Posie is so effective is because she is not trying to convince people about feminism - that takes patience, nuance and time. She is talking about the truth, the biological truth.

And it's an excellent strategy. Because in order to disagree with her, or refute what's she saying you have to say why.

She's not trying to convince people that women are worth it, she is making them say why they're not.

She made Harrop claim women were appropriating the word woman, ffs.

It's genius.

Far more people will align themselves with free speech than feminism.

And we have to be able to talk, before we can talk about women.

Hmmmmm let me think 🤔 - so if I don’t agree with what PP says (or allegedly says) ALL the time then by rights I need to abandon my entire world view and political standpoint? A view I came to independent of any of the actors we are discussing? Okayyyyyyy

Exactly Datun

Far more people will align themselves with free speech than feminism.

This is so true. The ongoing responses to everything Humberside Police post on social media at the moment is proof of that.

I got a weird troll on blog the other day and the last time I'd had this one was over the Challoners, and I looked at his mental comment and the crossover of mental twitter ids it contained and realised that we are going to struggle to explain why we saw it as a means of political communication one day. I think Harrop has found his level. Twitter personality just as it tanks, best leaving him to it. I dont think he has capacity for complexity, this thread would stump him.

This is so true. The ongoing responses to everything Humberside Police post on social media at the moment is proof of that.

Yes, blue. I noticed it on the Matthew Wright show today.

He was far more comfortable, confident and sure of his ground encouraging Harry the Owl to talk about the police interviewing him for wrong think, than letting Harry talk about how women are being thrown under the bus.

He instantly grasped how wrong it was. Whereas the feminism side was fraught with land mines for him. He is not sure enough of the issues to talk confidently, without being worried he's going to put his foot in it, offend someone or be vilified.

But the very fact he had Harry on, shows that he does profoundly disagree with a lot of transactivism.

For a lot of people, free speech is a far more comfortable, and feels more legitimate, as a means of getting this issue out there.

Here is my 2 cents on working with "right wing women" in the US.
I was/am part of the midwifery and homebirth movement starting in the early 1980's.For me this has always been a feminist issue. Midwives here have fought tooth and nails against HEAVY patriarchal medical power trips. It is different than the UK. Empowering women in childbearing is rooted in feminism.
My point is that we have formed alliances with the whole spectrum of birthing women. Fundamentalist Christian women want home births and leftie midwives provide care for them (and vice versa). We sit for hours in their homes while they labor, often witnessing the most vile misogyny going on in the home, but supporting women in their informed choices is always in the forefront. I have disagreed profoundly with what I observe as the effects of sexist political beliefs, but at the end of the day we support WOMEN in their most vulnerable and powerful glory. I am willing to "cross the aisle" on focused common ground and I think we should celebrate these efforts. Not mindlessly, but respectfully. I also hope that one or 2 or 300 or 3000 women "on the other side" will find a spark of rebellion from the cage of misogyny, from our willingness to engage.
I absolutely respect and commend Jean Hatchet for drawing her boundary. I also respect and commend those who are willing to join hands and do the work of finding common ground across deep ideological divides. It's not easy

I admire both Posie and Jean for very different reasons.

My general views seem to align extremely close to Jeans actually. However, I can disagree (often strongly...as with the Tommy Robinson thing) with Posie while still thinking the work she is doing on awareness raising and such is amazing. Hands Across the Aisle, or whatever..again..I have next to nothing in common with right wing/religious/American wmen but do understand that we all kind of have the same view on this topic, but for VERY different reasons. Again , not opposed to working with very different people for a common 'aim'.

I have my lines, Jean has hers. Can' see any fault in this. Though was probably daft of Posie to go on a fmeinist podcast and start praising Tommy Robinson when its fairly obvious surely to most people that he did not highlight grooming gangs for awareness, but because the perpetrators of the gangs in question were brown...but still. Not about to denounce Posie over differing views, which seems to be what TRAs are expecting over this. Not that I think thats what Jean meant by the post though..

But yeah. Unfortunate that there seems to have been some fallout or whatever but, this doesn't change my views on Posie or Jean.

Sorry, Robinson..was because they were brown, and thats what gains him attention. I feel he is mostly about self promotion, than anything else.

Yes I see the irony in my saying this after the rest of my post also With what I said about dfferent people working together if a common goal is in view and whatnot. But I don't really see..gaining twitter followers and such as being a goal I personally agree with. I don't know Posies reasons though so maybe that bit was a bit daft, not that she would care what I said anyway. Thats actually one of the things I admire in all honesty sometimes, the lack of fucks she has to give.

Mind

OrchidInTheSun Fri 25-Jan-19 16:15:09

That picture is pretty spot on also I think. Wish I had read the thread before commenting now really..will not post again until I have read the whole thing. I have to say I did wonder why a certain number of male twitter users were wanking themselves raw over someone disagreeing with Posie again. I didn't think anything of it earlier, but its a bit reminiscent of how they all shat their pants with glee when Womans Place removed her from the panel a while back.

I stand with Posie and I stand with Jean. And respect both of them. Whether they wish to stand with each other is entirely up to them and that choice should be respected too.

We do not believe in RightThink. Why should we expect either of them to? We are not a homogeneous body. There is room for different approaches.

YYY to both of these actually. I won't post in here anymore after reading the thread, this will be my last one here. I think I have waffled enough when really, this was all that needed repeated, the bold. But I will read through til the end (and probably not sleep til 7am..or fall asleep and have to finish tomorrow!) to see what each of you wonderful women, even any I may disagree with might have said. Will skim read likely any posts that seem a bit like they are coming from men typing one handed though.

Is funkyfunkydance12 that Emily person then or am I being thick. And, is the blog in the op actually genuine cos I smell bollocks.

As for heterosexual women who aren't confused about their sex having less to fear from right wing religious nuts. What is the handmaid's tale based on?

If you stop talking to anyone who doesn’t think exactly the same as you, your behaviour is definitely cultish and you certainly won’t achieve anything politically.

So many intelligent women on this thread arguing that we can unite with women from the other side of the political spectrum to our own, on specific issues.

I just want to add, that not only is thre nothing wrong with doing this, there is also so much lost, in terms of ideas we are not familiar with, perspectives unfamiliar to us, and interests and concerns we could learn from.

This article was posted on another thread; it is about academic freedom and the “impoverished intellectual environment” that ensues when voices we may not agree with are stifled. Although we are not quite University of Mumsnet, this forum does promote a rich intellectual environment, and it is arguably because of the many viewpoints that this is so.

www.bera.ac.uk/blog/the-gender-wars-academic-freedom-and-education?fbclid=IwAR1PlWG7AjkFPMWR2Zt5lhTSUgrg8e6zckSGnijUIFuLa7sLgSmBYLs1NwQ

My personal opinion is that this is the discussion we had to have.

I am a lesbian and a radfem, no children, and I am half way across the world from the UK. I would never have discovered this forum if not for the GC aspect, and in doing so it has given me an insight into other ways of being and challenged my ideas on what it is to be a 'mother'; my lifestyle tends to alienate people with family commitments and as a result I don't have many close friends who are raising children with male partners.

I think that unifying over common political aims is a net positive when it gives us a chance to develop respect and empathy for each other in other ways. This forum and this thread show this process in action. I welcome the opportunity to be challenged in my assumptions and I think it should be encouraged.

I said I would RTFT then leave, but just to say, I did read it all and have found it one of the most interesting reads in a very very long time. And yes, I had made the mistake of just taking Jeans opinion on the Robinson podcast as gospel without listening, which was a bit daft really of me, and yeah, reading the transcript, IMO its not support of Robinson and negating the work of feminists at all, however I understand thats Jeans opinion and thats up to her.

Now, whether to go to sleep and possibly feel much worse for having like 4 hours sleep, or just stay up Its only ever this section of MN that keeps me up til this time too, and as I said, not been quite this enthralled by a thread (or even book!) in a long time.

I think people forget that first and foremost this is now a free speech issue - if we can’t talk as women then we can’t discuss feminism in a broader context eg reproductive rights etc So it’s not either or but a matter of what comes first. The right to free speech has to come first to even have the conversation about the rest. The majority of people support free speech and it is this where alliances across divides are being made - and have to be made - between women. Once we win the free speech battle, then we move onto fighting the battle around the definition of woman. After that, we can move onto abortion etc First things first - cement the right to free speech- this is where Posie is aligned plus what is the definition of woman.

This timeline of priorities and what/when needs to be spelt out to avoid unnecessary misunderstandings as seems to have occurred between Jean and Posie

If you have a problem with people the left doing a hostile takeover of a part of the left, you don't go to the right and ask them for help unless you want the right to take over or you want to burn it all to the ground.

This.

I've always been suspicious of Posie's motives. You don't associate with racists and misogynists ever unless you want to discredit your movement.
If you're taking a GC stance but associating with people who want to 'drain the swamp' and roll back women's rights WTF are your motives?

You don't have to be left or right wing to oppose the myth of innate gender id, any more than you don't have to be left or right wing to oppose the idea that the Earth is flat.

Women have to be nice, don’t we? And agreeable? And collective?

Disagreements about purity of motive splintered wave-feminism and movements of the left have always been characterised by fierce ideological disagreements.

I don’t think Posie is particularly nice, but she is very effective. She has chosen a strategic direction and allies which she hopes will achieve her ends.

Other women, other groups, will make different allegiances and different alliances. The Suffragettes sustained many disagreements and disruptions, but kept working, collectively or individually,toward a goal.

We need to stop worrying about the illusion of cohesion and put our energies into sustained critique of the MRA agenda and direct action to maintain and extend the right of women to exist as equal citizens in the world.

I think the idea of cohesion is damaging to women. It reinforces the idea that femininity as a gender identity, rather than biology, unites us. Culturally women are expected to be collective and inclusive (ie caring and nurturing), and punished for stepping out of that role.

Jean is perfectly entitled to choose not to engage with Posie’s allies, as are we all. But being nice hasn’t worked so well for women, no matter how good we try to be.

Disagreement is inevitable and we need to embrace those battles as a way of honing our edge - to learn to be fierce and give no fucks.

I concur that this is probably one of the most important threads I've ever read on mn.

Posie never said she was on the left. Far from it. And she definitely said she gave no fucks. Political spectrum reforming and we all have different political aims. Knowing what a woman is doesnt mean you are on the left. Far from it these days.

Whoever made the point about illusion of cohesion I think is spot on. ll that happens when you pretend you are coherent in that way is you end up as a tribe behind one person doing same as happened with trans activists. Our strength was never ideological cohesion. Quite the opposite.