Did anyone watch Loose Women today?

[MrsScamander]

They were discussing whether transgender people should have access to the ward of the sex they identify as.

3 of the presenters brought up the valid concerns of the safety of women but it seems Stacey Solomon thinks that its terribly unkind of women to not feel comfortable having penis in their personal space when they're vulnerable in a hospital ward.

We should ignore our own discomfort because a transwomen doesn't feel comfortable on a ward full of men 😑

Generally I like Stacey, but I cannot agree with her disregarding the concerns surrounding putting male bodies in spaces with vulnerable women. Apparently Karen White is a rare example of someone abusing self ID, so we should ignore that it happened because it doesn't happen often.

Women are collateral damage.

I know you weren’t calling for all care to be sex specific and I agree, if a man requested to be attended by a man then they should have the request honoured wherever possible, but I think there are differences (or actually similarities) in how the sexes want intimate care to be given.

I don't know. The ward that I nursed on were by far elderly men. Most of those were uncomfortable being looked after by female staff and they would often say things but apologetically, as though they thought we would be offended by it.

I'm not talking about the fear of being assaulted either but just embarrassment.

Maybe it's assumed that men are used to being cared for by women (their mothers). Is it a subconscious feeling then that female care givers are "the norm" because it links back to childhood? Never thought it through that far tbh.

You are right though. Where possible, all patients should be given choice, without value judgements.

This is what I love about this board. The thread started with a discussion about Loose Women, and now we (predominantly women) are discussing men's need for privacy and respect within a nursing context. It's a generous, even handed discussion, looking at people as individuals. I must admit I'd never considered a man might not want a female HCP.

I can't ever imagine the hate filled discussions where we're all referred to as t**fs moving along in this way.

I think there would be an outcry from men if it were mandated that all intimate care should be provided by a same sex HCP.

To be fair, I think that would 80% be because they like being waited on hand and foot by a woman and not because they're scared of a man touching them up.

I'm not sure having your clothes changed and your own faeces washed off you, would be constituted being waited on hand and foot, to be honest.

And yes, it's about choice.

How is this going to impact women who have religious beliefs that require men not to see them uncovered?
I used to work in a setting where women in mental distress sometimes took off their clothes in public, don't know why but is a thing. The protocol was to clear the area and one or two staff to help them cover up or get to a safe place. There were one or two male members of staff who always found an excuse to Get an eyeful, inflaming the situation and frankly being completely inappropriate.

I'm not sure having your clothes changed and your own faeces washed off you, would be constituted being waited on hand and foot, to be honest.

Me neither, and to be honest I don’t think we should be making cynical judgements about people who need those kind of services.

Having cared for a severely disabled parent I thought long and hard about what I would prefer if I found myself in her position, and I want neither a male or female carer if I reach that stage. One way or another I’ll ‘take care of myself’.

It's entirely right that patients of either sex have the facility to ask for a HCP or some one providing intimate services who is the same sex as they are.

It's a complicated issue for men in that position from pure logistics because of the lack of men in those jobs. Probably something that is only going to change by raising the overall prestige of the caring professions in the first place which is a huge cultural shift, but I agree certainly needs to happen.

It's not nearly as complicated for women, except when they are being flat out told that they have to pretend that some men are in fact women, and their objections do often seem to be met by people questioning their need for same sex care in the first place.

And the same thing is happening in this instance in terms of single sex provision, which is arguably easier to action than same-sex HCP in every possible instance.

FloralBunting - Perhaps there are much more women than men working in healthcare because women tend to me more attracted to that profession due to their interests. I.e. there might be a difference in vocational interest between the sexes (on average).

Women tend to be more interested in people (hence the caring professions), men more interested in things (engineering etc.)
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19883140

I wouldn't read too much into whatever it was stacey said. They always have one or two presenters on each side of the "debate" regardless of what they actually believe, I suspect the producers tell them what to say. It doesn't matter what the subject matter is, from what I've seen of it you would always get that.

Did it not occur to you, Tenno, that for many, many years nursing was one of few professions open to women, probably due to what (a patriarchal) society regarded as being appropriate work for gentle womenfolk? Hence why there were many women in nursing even hundreds of years ago but few in medicine until relatively recently?

The legacy of this is still being felt today. Caring is seen as low status, is poorly paid and therefore still doesn't attract men much. Many women, constrained by having to provide childcare and work around partners, cannot afford to be so fussy.

As I am writing this I am surprised at having to do so, Tenno. It's pretty obvious.

chaplin - Certainly that would be the reason historically. However, we do not live in the 1950s anymore and nowadays all professions are open to both sexes.

You are right of course that caring needs to be much better paid and rewarded.

However, we do not live in the 1950s anymore and nowadays all professions are open to both sexes

Yes, technically. But that's why most of us here are gender critical feminists, because we recognise that 'gender' is not innate but socialised and there are a range of social, cultural, economic and political dimensions to this including about the value attached to particular occupations and the way we raise boys and girls respectively.

Most people are not trailblazers and follow well-trodden paths. People are not as free as they appear. Which is why many children end up doing the kind of work that is common in their communities. Working class children have a state education as do many middle class children, so they should be able to study medicine, law and such disciplines in decent numbers, which isn't the reality.

They often feel such professions are completely out of their reach while becoming a footballer, singer or reality TV star (used to be glamour model) isn't because people like them (as they see it) have achieved such success.

So women continue to go into nursing, which for all its faults in the UK is seen as offering good job security, and men continue to stay away because it isn't seen as manly work, and the pay is too low to encourage them to give it a go.

That was in reply to Tenno.

alaric I agree, I think SS has capitalised on the "bimbo" stereotype, but when I've seen her put forward some very intelligent arguments (just not about this!)

Did anyone see her on The Chase? She was really good, a lot of people were tweeting about how they thought she put on being a bit thick.

I do agree that there are historical, social and cultural forces that shape people's preference for job. However my original point was that there are innate tempoeramental differences between men and women that also shape there preferences for different work.

I do disagree with Spartacus who said " 'gender' is not innate but socialised". Perhaps it is heresy to say it here, but I think men and women (on average) exhibit differences in personality on a bioligical basis, not just socially constructed. This is in addition to the social forces at work (it's not an either/or).

most men, particularly elderly men, are just expected to put up with female nurses and carers in a way that most women are not expected to have male nurses and carers.

A very woke male friend was telling me about how difficult he found it abroad when a male masseur arrived to do a full body massage for him, as was standard in that country. He said he was far more comfortable receiving intimate care from a woman, and wasn't sure why he found a man doing it so uncomfortable.

I pointed out that it was his first experience of feeling sexually vulnerable. Women live with that feeling all the time.

The whole 'TW feel intimidated, embarrassed and uncomfortable in men's wards and this should be respected' is never extended to 'and women feel intimidated, embarrassed and uncomfortable when TW are on their wards and this should be respected'. The narcissism and total lack of empathy or interest in anyone but selves is stark.

Yes, although it would be 'nice' for everybody to request same sex intimate care for dignity/embarassment's sake, in the case of male-male it isnt always practical due to shortages of male carers. The situation is far more acute for women because it isn't about dignity, it's about safety.

The whole 'TW feel intimidated, embarrassed and uncomfortable in men's wards and this should be respected' is never extended to 'and women feel intimidated, embarrassed and uncomfortable when TW are on their wards and this should be respected'. The narcissism and total lack of empathy or interest in anyone but selves is stark.

This.

When i was 29 i got gall bladder disease (gallstones. I wont bore ppl again with how as ive talked about it lots on this site) but delirious with pain , on morphine and losing conciousness on occasion i would have been unable to defend myself from anything.

Kidney infection at the age of 34 where i also lost conciousness.

sorry i posted after only getting to page 2 so didnt realize the discussion had moved on.

some excellent points about the caring profession.