Trans Widows Escape Committee 2- The Trans Widows Strike Back..

[TinselAngel]

The previous thread is nearly full, so here is a shiny new one.

I'm thrilled that this took off enough to merit a second thread.

This is a support area for women who are, or have been, in unhappy relationships with male partners who are transitioning, or exploring their "gender identity"

If you are in that position-

1. You are not alone
2. It is not a situation that you should be expected to tolerate, let alone celebrate.
3. There is always a way out, if you want it. The thread is called Escape Committee for that reason.

I've been lurking for a while. Found the trans threads after discussions about trans issues with (female) feminist friend. It has been an eye opener and a rapid learning curve. To say I am horrified by your stories is an understatement.

I have a cousin whose uncle transitioned about thirty years ago. I asked her about the impact on the family. Apparently the wife was kindly and accommodating and two out of three adult children were accepting but one was not. This is all hearsay of course, but interesting. It wasn't so common back in the 1980s.

I just looked at www.depend.org.uk @TinselAngel and I am shocked that they wouldn't let you join. The decision rather undermines their raison d'etre I would have thought. Hey ho.

I am interested in the philosophical underpinning of trans ideology (or lack of) and I stumbled across this the other day. The Heritage Foundation is a US right-wing think tank, but it is hard to fault the logic. If you haven't seen it you may find it useful in discussions with people who don't understand how whole societies are being gaslighted.

www.heritage.org/gender/commentary/transgender-ideology-riddled-contradictions-here-are-the-big-ones

Apologies for intruding. I wish you all well. I will go back to lurking now.

Well I can see why an organisation that recommends GIRES and Mermaids doesn't want me galloping round their forum telling its members that trans ideology damages women and they should get the fuck out of these relationships,to be honest.

As for that article interesteddad, whilst it can be expedient to see allies in the religious right I think one has to be careful as even if we agree on certain points, their motivation for arriving at said points of agreement will be entirely different, and usually not feminist.

If I ever feel the need to share a gender critical 101 guide I go for feminist authors.

You might find this interesting/ useful.
https://sexandgenderintro.com/

With regards to your experience in your own family, we've all tried to be kind and understanding. It's what got most of us in the mess in the first place.

It's disappointing that you have been shunned by Depend, Tinsel. They used to have members with a wide range of views contributing to their boards including several that had split with their partners and were quite vocal about the shit treatment they and their children have had.

haven't looked at it for a while, though, and it looks like they have been overrun by the TRAs unfortunately. Sad to see the Mermaids and other bullshit on their Facebook page, I thought that had been ditched.

I distanced myself from the group after going to one of their meet-ups and being regaled with tales of happy polyamory (two of the five women there were living with their other halves and a shared boyfriend ). It completely freaked me out and I practically ran out of there.

20 year old article just shared on twitter by the founder of WOBS. I'm not sure things have moved on much.

www.gender.org.uk/conf/1998/diana.htm

Related thread discussing this topic in general:

The impact of hearing trans widows stories? www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3629059-the-impact-of-hearing-trans-widows-stories

I'm celebrating today. I just made the last payment on a horrific loan I had to take out to get us out of the financial hole I was left in.
Thats it, its paid off. I'm finally free

Theinebriti Well done! . I really hope you do something wonderful to mark the day. It's always such a relief to be out from under a debt.

I'm not a trans widow but read the comments here, came on today looking for the thread TinselAngel has linked to (couldn't see it, so thanks TInsel).

So glad for you Tinsel. I never cease to be amazed by the resilience and strength of women in this position, and how they get their kids through. How liberating

Tinsel. Just read posts on other thread ( effect trans widows stories ). As I'm really struggling right now found it helped to know non trans widows feel our pain . Trying to get help from MH team. But felt they do not want to listen or care.

TheInebriati, congratulations! I hope your finances continue to improve. I am fortunate that my life post-divorce is a major financial improvement. Though my ex is now working two jobs now that he no longer has access to my earnings in addition to his own. Apparently having no impulse control and constantly buying new clothes and makeup is expensive. ;)

AncientLights QuinnMovesOn Thank you, we are celebrating today with a takeaway

And yes Quinn, that sounds familiar...its a tough old world, isn't it. I call Ex 'TooJobs' (Two Jobs) and told him it was as if he were the second Steve Jobs, as he works in IT - he doesnt get it as he has no sense of humour

Hi all,
Have been following mumsnet for over a year now. Due to registration problems / complications have delayed signing up, until just reading this thread, has been a massive support. Have 3 late teens/young adul. H has been cross-dressing for must be about 3 years, struggle massively with this. I do feel that I'm being "punished " in a way, as I see that it maybe started with my refusal to dress like a tart, not that I minded wearing stockings, if we went out somewhere nice, but not with heels & a short skirt round the supermarket ! really! when I asked him at an early stage why he was wearing stockings, he said " because you don't"" I've been feeling increasingly alienated from him sexually, couldn't get near him when he shaved his body hair off (grown it back now) feel like my role has been usurped, as the woman in the relationship - still do the lions share of all the household graft! . For the record, I would classify myself as pretty ordinary, wear jeans trousers, skirts, trainers, heels, make up or no make up as the mood takes me. He says it's escapism, try to talk about it, but don't feel I'm getting anywhere tbh. Im in a dilemma atm, whether to "push" for something, I know hes' depressed, and feel he is socially isolated, and not sure if whatever he looks at on-line (kept hidden from me, had rows about the secrecy etc) though in all this time cant get used to any of it, the tarty lingerie, the female shoes I don't want to facilitate it, see it - anything. I consider myself open minded enough just didn't sign up for this... worried about the info I've started to read from thread that it just gets worse. Sex life has taken an even bigger nose-dive, esp since the menopause.
Anyway I thought this list of wives rights might be a help, have posted the link below if anyones keen to read further.
(not sure about no5, but think they make valid statements, also cite the word grief which think sums up the term trans widows perfectly)

1. We have the right to know about our husbands' crossdressing, preferably before marriage, but certainly when our husbands start to make crossdressing a significant factor in their lives and wish to contact support groups.

1. We have the right to honest open communication with our husbands, with negotiation and compromise on both sides, particularly in regard to allocation of family resources and in matters pertaining to telling our children. Old patterns of selfishness and deception must cease.

1. We have the right not to be pushed to "accept" things before we have had time to learn enough about them and to begin to get used to them.

1. We have the right to our husbands as men, the men we married, men who maintain a positive, healthy masculinity while "exploring their femininity" and seek neither to evade responsibilities nor to appropriate our own feminine roles.

1. We have the right to our husbands' masculine bodies. Neither partner in a marriage has the right to alter body features without the full knowledge and consent of the other.

1. We have the right to support groups for ourselves that promote our own growth and well-being, help us understand our husbands' needs, and provide tools for relationship building.

1. We have the right to support groups for our husbands that encourage their feminine development without denigrating healthy masculinity, that welcome us as full members on an equal basis with our husbands, and that fully support relationship commitments.

1. We have the right not to be mocked and demeaned by sexually explicit or otherwise offensive conversation, dress and behavior at group meetings.

1. We have the right not to be pressured to attend group gatherings at public locations, night clubs, or other places that pose security risks.

10. We have the right to be asked permission before our clothes, make-up, jewellery or other personal items are borrowed.

11. We have the right to personal time in which to get in touch with our own femininity, pursue our personal growth and work on creative projects.

12. We have the right to expect local, regional and national gender organizations and conventions to fully support and promote these rights in their programs and policies.

www.thefreelibrary.com/Counselling+the+partners+of+heterosexual+male+cross-dressers-a020297071
sorry but just needed to let off steam!

Link I posted was the same as the first one twinkly star added.
stll like the 12 points

I'm not sure about 5 and don't agree with 8 or 10.

1. We have the right not to be mocked and demeaned by sexually explicit or otherwise offensive conversation, dress and behavior at group meetings.

10 - Buy your own.
Don't use items that belong to your wife, daughter or step daughter, it involves them in acting out your fetish.

Think 5 should read something along the lines of:-
we have a right, to the relationship we entered into, that, with a heterosexual male. We have a choice to choose, whether we accept or not changes to our partners behaviour.
No 8 (think this was for those attending "support meetings" which were completely for promoting cross-dressing, so really only supportive to female wives/partners if they completely supported their partner) We have the right not to partake, promote or support behaviour that we do not wish to.
No 10 think I agree with this, think I would feel this would be an invasion of my personal space more than him wearing his own?
Can't quite imagine the his/hers false eyelashes

I'm a bit confused as to who invented those rules? Did you write them @twinklystar23 or did they come from somewhere else?

Your post took me right back to my marriage, to the extent that it sent a chill down my spine.

Number 5 in particular is something I used to try to get across to my ex, but that he said was rubbish.

The list reminds me of when I used to try and agree rules of engagement in an increasingly desperate attempt to make my marriage work and keep my family together. It was completely futile and almost destroyed my mental health.

These men will do what they please and will not adhere to any list of rules that you create.

In my opinion it is also completely useless to try and impose rules on organisations set up to support and facilitate cross dressers. They will only ever exist to make the wives compliant. (Which I also think would be the effect of these rules although I'm not sure if that is what is intended).

The only woman focussed source of help, is that provided by women ourselves.

I can't express the sheer relief at no longer being part of all that. Imagine the freedom of no longer having to engage in the cycle of creating boundaries, only to see them repeatedly broken down. Then giving some ground, creating another boundary etc etc until your relationship is no longer recognisable as being anything like the one you signed up for.

The situation you have found yourself in is not your fault. Any attempt by your partner to say that it is is victim blaming.

The wives' right I'm interested in is the right to get the fuck out of it all and to live your own life, not somebody else's.

And as PP said - once you are free of the debts they created it produces a similar sense of freedom.

@Tgiana what sort of help are you trying to get re. MH? Help for yourself? You can self refer for counselling (at least you can in my area), and get anti depressants from the GP if necessary. How do you mean, they don't care?

Tinselangel, the original posted set of 12 rules were cut and pasted from the link, the further discussion between TheInebriati ( my second post) were my spin on the "original" rules, and partly in response to Thelnebriati comments.

They were from the link as said, to assert (TW) rights. Whilst many gaslight, and in all other scenarios, would be deemed to inflicting emotional abuse, it's twisted onto the victim amazingly as many incidences of emotional abuse are. The "rights" spoke to me as a sort of position statement, having read the thread, which thought they would be helpful?

I'm experiencing a mixture of some of the behaviour, coupled with "original" behaviour, which makes it difficult for me to know what to push for, though reading all the thread, makes me concerned where this is potentially all heading...

Sorry Twinkly I've read (most of) the link now.
I can't see a date on it but I presume the article was written before the rise of transgnder ideology.
I suppose those rules might be relevant for someone who wants to stay.

I have had a go at reframing them in a way that sounds more empowering and less like a basis for negotiation but I’m not sure if it works. See what you think:
“These are my boundaries and I have decided that I will leave if any of the following happen:

1. If you escalate your cross dressing behaviour without discussing it with me, e.g. by contacting support groups, or creating alternative online identities
2. You stop communicating honestly and negotiating (i.e. if you lie). In particular in matters regarding finance or our children. Your cross dressing is not our top priority.
3. You rush me into accepting escalations that I am not ready for
4. You stop believing that you are a man. Or you attempt to appropriate my role.
5. You embark on any change to your masculine body
6. You stop me seeking independent support from other women.
7. You involve us in groups that put your needs over my needs, or the needs of our relationship
8. You put me in an environment where females are mocked or demeaned.
9. You pressure me to attend any event that is not safe
10. You borrow any of my clothes etc. without asking.
11. You stop supporting me in pursuing my own hobbies and time for myself
12. You support any groups that do not agree with points 1 to 11.
13. This is not an exhaustive list.”

For what its worth. I don't think any cross dresser would agree to these rules.

With regards to your husband, I'm sorry but it is likely that his behaviour will escalate and it is also likely that he has an extensive secret online life.

But you sound like you are already in the strong position of doing your research independetly and starting to think about what your boundaries are, so well done!

Good idea but I'm afraid I don't feel optimistic about 'rules' being agreed. I laid out some basic courtesies to my ex, but the women's knickers were in the washing (of course done by me 😂) within days. Over and over again this thread has shown a low chance of boundaries being respected by people doing this, not helped by the brave-and--stunning thing which made my ex very convinced of his right to total freedom/expression/not being oppressed etc. even though my requests were mild... This thing takes over and they lose any sense of consideration or respect for others...

Tinsel - yes was written maybe before transgenderism had really imploded, and cross-dressing was the prominent issue, therefore the 12 "rules" are written on the basis of helping marriages to work.
so therefore, as you say could very much appear like these are open to negotiation. So I think something more defined as it's coming from T.W, besides how many men would be as tolerant?
Thanks for the encouragement, I'd like to find out what his on-line life is, it's kept under lock and key, so I'm suspicious, but would like to know the extent of it.

Does he work in IT like the rest of them Twinkly? If so you may never know.

the 12 "rules" are written on the basis of helping marriages to work.

Yes, they give off a strong sense of "how to negotiate with my abuser to get the level of abuse down to something I can bear".

There doesn't seem to be this rule:

If it gets too much, then, even if my partner doesn't want it, I can walk away from the relationship*

• Subject to this being possible in terms of finances, children, being able to set up a new home, etc.

twinkly what you write about the stockings etc is so true .

I have an ex (thank God ) friend who I now know to be AGP (thanks to Mumsnet threads )

I thought he was "fun androgynous friend " for a while .

But deep down some of his views on women were very weird and scary and controlling and linked to exhibitionism and flashing.

You know when you hear some creepy rapist types who "see sex" everywhere and claim every woman is "giving men the eye" and all women are "using sex" .

That's what was going on inside his head and that's the image of women he wanted to buy into - it was a combination of things over a length of time , but it was like he didn't "approve " if I acted and dressed normally because all women "should" want to put on red dresses and high heels and talk about lipstick 24\7.

Part of the sexual kink is going out and being stared at in public . Which shows just how MALE these people are - as biological women we all know not to draw attention to ourselves due to safety concerns (plus we know other women are quick to judge \socially ostracise) but for a six foot bloke the thrill of being looked at and having people commenting on them whilst being physically safe is all part of the fetish .

When it comes to rules, you can't beat The Rules of Misogyny (thanks to the much missed The Bewilderness):

1st rule of misogyny: Women are responsible for what men do.
2nd rule of misogyny: Women saying no to men is a hate crime.
3rd rule of misogyny: Women speaking for themselves are exclusionary and selfish.
4th rule of misogyny: Women’s opinions are violence against men thus male violence against women is justified.
5th rule of misogyny: WATM! Women and Feminism must be useful to men or they are worthless.
6th rule of misogyny: Women who go around being female AT men by menstruating and breast feeding babies deserve punishment.
7th rule of misogyny: Women should always be grateful to men for everything.
8th rule of misogyny: Men are whatever men say they are and women are whatever men say they are.
9th rule of misogyny: Men always know the “real reasons” for everything women do and say. 10th rule of misogyny: The worst thing about male violence is that it males men look bad. 11th rule of misogyny: Basic pattern recognition skills are cruel and evil when they hurt men’s feelings.
12th rule of misogyny: whatever women suffer from, men suffer from more.
13th rule of misogyny: Women are not oppressed! Rape and catcalling and objectification are all compliments, not oppression.
14th rule of misogyny: Women have all the rights they need: The right to remain silent