Meet the Other Phone. Only the apps you allow.

Meet the Other Phone.
Only the apps you allow.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Martina Navratilova states the obvious

596 replies

Glinner · 19/12/2018 12:16

twitter.com/Martina/status/1075193284660785153

At first I was delighted to see thisat last a big name in women's sport is speaking up! but then I got angry all over again that this utterly obvious point has to be explained to an adult, in this case, a Guardian journalist. It boggles the mind.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
34
ScipioAfricanus · 25/12/2018 19:18

McKinnon is exactly the kind of person who would happily ruin Christmas dinner for everyone else by going on and on about an offensive opinion and not letting anyone (clue - all the women present) divert or diffuse the situation so everyone could have a nice time. I’ve known a few people like that - funny how it was always men in real life who behaved like that. One of them nearly drove me to tears refusing to drop a subject or move away from it when I was an exhausted guest in his house. The woman who was his partner at the time is a lesbian and now lives with a lovely woman.

Knicknackpaddyflak · 25/12/2018 19:45

I’ll be honest and say I find them scary.

A google of 'narcissistic injury' (and rage) makes quite interesting reading.

AspieAndProud · 25/12/2018 21:49

McKinnon is exactly the kind of person who would happily ruin Christmas dinner for everyone else by going on and on about an offensive opinion

McKinnon is a one-person EastEnders Christmas special bundle of festive joy.

If we had one in my family we’d fake our own deaths to get out of inviting them to dinner.

Wordthe · 25/12/2018 22:04

Yes tuck that one away for future use
(can we get banned for mentioning tucking on here?)

DoctorTwo · 26/12/2018 03:14

McKinnon is a one-person EastEnders Christmas special bundle of festive joy.

This is the best description of an abusive arsehole ever :o

If we had one in my family we’d fake our own deaths to get out of inviting them to dinner.

Same here, sometimes I'm glad I'm single.

AngryAttackKittens · 26/12/2018 09:38

If we had one in my family we’d fake our own deaths to get out of inviting them to dinner.

"We've all moved to Outer Mongolia. Yes, all the cousins too! Nope, sorry, no internet access so you can't Facetime us to tell us about how you're planning to sue the woman who works at the dry cleaners because she didn't smile widely enough while handing you your shirts back."

R0wantrees · 26/12/2018 12:59

from the Daily Mail article linked above:
(extract)
Delia Johnston, an adviser to several sporting bodies on transgender issues, said the pair have already represented Britain at ‘a European championship sporting event’.

She described one of them as a potential Olympic medal-winner, having achieved an ‘awesome’ personal best earlier this year.

Their gender status is known to the organisations governing their sports but not to rivals from other nations.

The Mail on Sunday can reveal that dramatic changes to International Olympic Committee guidelines have given hope to transgender athletes across the world.

New rules mean they can now take part in the Games without having reassignment surgery.

Instead, competitors born male need only declare themselves female and demonstrate that their testosterone level has been below a specified point for a year.

Delia Johnson, pictured, an adviser to several sporting bodies on transgender issues, said the two athletes have already represented Britain at a 'European championship sporting event' +2
Delia Johnson, pictured, an adviser to several sporting bodies on transgender issues, said the two athletes have already represented Britain at a 'European championship sporting event'

However, the two Britons transitioned from men to women some years ago and have since ‘competed in their assigned gender’.

Their emergence on the international scene was confirmed by Ms Johnston, who has advised the Football Association and UK Athletics, and helped shape policy on transgender issues.

She was also an ambassador at the London 2012 Olympics.

Ms Johnston said their recent performances ought to automatically guarantee them places on Team GB.

‘They should be selected but they fear they will be deemed too tricky – too many issues, too much negativity,’ she said. (continues)

2013 Ted Talk
The Real Life Test: Delia Johnston at TEDxMiltonKeynesWomen

2015 BBC 'Transsexual Delia Johnston - I hated sport before my sex change'
(extract)
When Delia Johnston turned up at a netball taster event, the coach quipped she must have been a great player at school because of her height.

In truth the 59-year-old had never played the game in her life, as Johnston was born male.

"I had to come up with some excuse," she told BBC Sport.

"After that first night I had to go and buy the complete idiot's guide to netball as I knew nothing about the game. But it's great fun now." continues
www.bbc.com/sport/get-inspired/31748076

2015 Metro interview & background
'Transgender woman on struggle with new identity – and how she was accepted by the FA, but not her daughter'

(extract)
The thorny issue of changing rooms, and particularly which one to use, is an issue that troubled Delia at first too. It took her a while to make the move into the women’s changing rooms. ‘In my early days it was always an issue of confidence,’ she says. ‘Where I am now, when it comes to changing rooms I’m female – end of. ‘It’s like me saying to you: “As a female, what’s it like going to a male changing room?” She admits that the transition and learning to live as a woman takes time. After a while though, Delia says she began to ‘get on with life and blend in’.

Delia now works as specialist diversity consultant for Trans In Sport, Northamptonshire Police and England Netball (Picture: Delia Johnston/Metro.co.uk) ‘I am unbelievably fortunate,’ she says. ‘I worked for London 2012 for a year… I’ve met celebrities, politicians and sports stars. I met some other super-tall women – the British women’s rowing team are mostly 6ft plus. ‘I even remember chatting to one female taller than me!’

There have been mishaps along the way, of course – but Delia says that comes with being tall, not just transsexual. ‘I occasionally get called “Sir”;’ she says. ‘Tall women in general get mislabelled. In my early days, understanding that was difficult. ‘I’d be standing in the queue at a railway station and someone would say “Can I help you, Sir?” ‘To be honest with you, I knew there was going to be a problem [with getting mislabelled], so I avoided those situations.

On using women’s loos ‘When I first started transitioning I was on a trip with some women and we stopped at service station. ‘They all dashed into ladies; I didn’t. I said “I don’t need the toilet”. I avoided public toilets at that stage. It goes back to the issue of being self-confident. ‘People stare at you as if you’d walked into the toilet with a missing limb. ‘The same happened in clothes shops. I would buy clothes, try them on at home and take them back. I avoided the confrontation. Trans people have to grow accustomed that others will look at them differently, she says. ‘But, over time your confidence grows. Once I got my head round the idea that people will always stare, I didn’t have a problem with it. ‘People will look at me. I’m 6ft 2in, long hair, long legs. They think I’m interesting,’ she says. On which changing room to choose… Delia has always been sporty, but transitioning posed problems for this area of her life too. ‘I play a lot of badminton. When I started transitioning, I was getting involved in my local gym. The NHS demand you keep yourself fit and healthy [if you are transitioning]. But how the hell can you do that if a gym is against you? It’s a Catch 22. ‘In the gym I used the disabled access changing room all the time, and I didn’t go walking around naked,’ she says. ‘Unless you’re looking for confrontation, you just have to be sensible. If you look and behave with confidence and you don’t scare the living daylights out of people, you’ll be okay. ‘If you go in like rabbit in headlights, you’ll be picked on.’

Delia says communal changing rooms posed the greatest problem. ‘In shops to try on clothes you go into cubicles – but in sports facilities on the whole, changing rooms are communal, and that was difficult. I would quickly learn the layout of a changing room. (continues)

Another hot topic that surrounds transgender people in sport is the issue of gender categorisation – something which Delia feels strongly about: At what point is it fair for a man who has transitioned into woman to play for the women’s team, and vice versa? According to their 2003 rules the IOC [International Olympic Committee] says you need to be on two years of medical hormones before you can play on the team of your assigned gender – something Delia believes is the wrong approach. ‘I think those rules are stupid,’ she says. ‘The requirements are extremely demanding and not all individuals can achieve what is required in time. By then, they may have passed their peak in terms of performance.’ Delia argues that physically, you change greatly, quickly, once you start taking female hormones.

‘When I play badminton now, my mind says I can do that shot but my body says, “in your dreams”. ‘I believe sport is so important. It helps you socially physically and mentally,’ she says. ‘Sports UK and Sports England have now rolled out new guidance. They’ve issued a Transsexual Inclusion In Sport document for domestic, national and international competitions. ‘But there’s not enough actual sports governing bodies implementing changes and policy review in light of this. ‘More still needs to be done. I’m not letting them get off lightly!’

On the ‘trans-friendly’ FA As Delia says, some bodies deserve credit where it’s due. Namely, the English Football Association, or The FA. Delia worked for the organisation despite, she says, having been told they were ‘homophobic’. Undeterred, she went in and examined the structure of the organisation from a transgender perspective, and found The FA to be the most inclusive of all sports organisations she’d come across – and in fact, the most instrumental in getting transsexuals involved in football." (continues)

metro.co.uk/2015/10/21/transgender-woman-on-her-desperate-struggle-with-her-new-identity-and-how-she-was-accepted-by-the-fa-but-not-her-daughter-5376352/?ito=cbshare

April 2018 in response to Liz Truss support for Mumsnet allowing civilised free speech despite pressures from some TRAs:
"Last night Delia Johnston, the former head of a charity campaigning for trans sportspeople to be allowed to compete in their chosen gender, condemned Ms Truss. Ms Johnston said: ‘She is giving kudos to Mumsnet who are particularly vicious on this particular front. Truss could be investigated for backing a group that is effectively advocating violence against the transgender community. She may be a terf in disguise.’"
www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5642853/Cabinet-minister-prompts-transgender-row-backing-Mumsnet-users.html

thread
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3228488-Liz-Truss-MP-breaks-cover-backs-MN

frogintheTyne · 26/12/2018 13:06

"she may be a terf in disguise"
These people are nuts.

R0wantrees · 26/12/2018 13:40

These people are nuts.

As Delia Johnston acknowledges, since identifying as a woman she has had a great deal of influence and access to those in powerful positions.

For someone who said they had no great interest or involvement in sport until after their 'transition' becoming involved at such high levels, so quickly is quite remarkable.

andyoldlabour · 26/12/2018 13:54

@R0wantrees

Brilliant post, thanks.
The more I read up on all this, the more obvious it becomes that transgender people are being allowed to dictate their own terms, without any checks and balances, and without any debate.

WTFIsAGleepglorp · 27/12/2018 11:29

Not sure if anyone has seen this.

Dr McKinnon's thesis.

twitter.com/lubelluledotcom/status/1076170560579780608?s=19

It's about how lying isn't bad......

Seriously.

Someone else links to the Amazon entry.

You can buy it!!!! Xmas Shock

WTFIsAGleepglorp · 27/12/2018 11:30

Sorry.

Meant to add a screenshot, but my paperclip button has stopped working. 🤔

WTFIsAGleepglorp · 27/12/2018 11:33

From LostinFife

The title of that plonkers PhD was

Reasonable Assertions: On Norms of Assertion and Why You Don't Need to Know What You're Talking About

I kid you not. Not a world champion cyclist or sports scientist or trans rights expert. but a world expert on bullshitting with a PhD in it.

WTFIsAGleepglorp · 27/12/2018 11:37

Link to Tweet giving link to .pdf document of the thesis.

twitter.com/lascapigliata8/status/1077966918542336000?s=19

Iused2BanOptimist · 27/12/2018 11:39

As Rod Liddle said. A Phd in Specious Twattery.
I suspect he didn't even know the actual title of the thesis when he coined that phrase. GrinWineXmas Confused

Italiangreyhound · 27/12/2018 11:54

Just watching Madagascar 2, there is a line from King Julian as they are about to throw Melman into the volcano. "Hurry, up before we all come to our senses."

Seems an appropriate line.

WTFIsAGleepglorp · 27/12/2018 12:15

The Internet giveths today.....

SignMeUp · 28/12/2018 02:21

www.lgbtqnation.com/2018/12/tennis-legend-martina-navratilova-attacks-trans-athletes-twitter/

Article today in LGBT Nation "Tennis legend Martina Navratilova attacks trans athletes on Twitter" My blood is BOILING!

SignMeUp · 28/12/2018 02:30

and from "Queerty" article with Martina swoon worthy picture:

www.queerty.com/tennis-star-martina-navratilova-accused-transphobia-following-shocking-tweet-20181227

NotBadConsidering · 28/12/2018 03:51

*Transgender and intersexed athletes have been an issue since at least the 1936 Summer Olympics, where Stanisława Walasiewicz, aka Stella Walsh, was accused of being male and had to undergo a genital inspection. After death, it was discovered that Walasiewicz was intersexed.

In recent years, this has become an increasing controversy, as Caster Semenya was pushed into gender testing, with many thinking the runner was transgender or intersex. The results of such tests have never been made public.*

Where to start with this...Firstly, neither of these athletes were/are transgender, and I’ve never once heard it mentioned that anyone thinks Semenya is trans Hmm. Stella Walsh dominated her sport because she was predominantly XY. Semenya has never had “gender” testing. It’s likely she’s had medical assessment that will have included sex testing. Although it’s speculative, it’s likely Semenya has something similar to partial AIS, and as a result has benefited from male puberty, and is still benefiting from that. Semenya is an argument against trans athletes competing against women as she demonstrates how male chromosomes, male puberty and physiology eg VO2 max is beneficial.

And for what it’s worth, I genuinely think Semenya runs within herself and she’s capable of going faster. It just looks too easy for her.

These woke writers just don’t understand what they’re writing, and don’t understand intersex or sport, and slur a great female athlete in the process by calling it an “attack”. Probably best ignored, as my blood is boiling too now!

indieshuffle · 28/12/2018 06:40

The title of that plonkers PhD was

Reasonable Assertions: On Norms of Assertion and Why You Don't Need to Know What You're Talking About

I kid you not. Not a world champion cyclist or sports scientist or trans rights expert. but a world expert on bullshitting with a PhD in it.

The book McKinnon wrote on the PhD, based on the norm they created called Supportable Reasons Norm (SRN), basically says that it is entirely reasonable and acceptable to assert anything you like so long as you have your own reasons for it; regardless of whether those reasons are true or false, able to be substantiated or not, or whether you even believe them or not. (other norms of acceptable assertion have moral/ factual/ sincere belief/ greater good components - McKinnon does away with all of those).

And then writes a special section on how or if you should even apologise if you are proved to be wrong (not read this part but would be interesting)

It is not just a PhD on bullshit, it is a book/norm that (attempts) to make gaslighting an acceptable norm.

McKinnon LITERALLY wrote the book on gaslighting

#trueCyclepath

andyoldlabour · 28/12/2018 15:42

@indieshuffle

McKinnon should bring out a book - "Cheating - means never having to say you are sorry"

HandsOffMyRights · 29/12/2018 08:17

Martina's back to defend herself (again).

Martina Navratilova (@Martina*) Tweeted:
And now I am not even authentic. Seriously? How many fights have I fought in my lifetime? And now you give me this kind of crap? Seriously? You really make it hard for me to want to help however I could help. With friends like this etc etc etc….Happy new Year to you too:) twitter.com/Martina/status/1078860832765665280?s=17*

indieshuffle · 29/12/2018 08:28

I'd love (?) to read that apologising section of McKinnon's book. I expect their abuse of Martina comes straight from it.

I hope Martina soon realises exactly how this McKinnon operates and that she is just being drawn into a sinister and cynical mindgame by a narcissist.

You cannot win on an individual level with someone who does not play by any rules, who has no morals and who delights in dominating and winding up other people. #WorldChampMasterGaslighter

Knicknackpaddyflak · 29/12/2018 08:37

Emotion creates reality. Pathology involved, much of this is an attempt to normalise distorted thinking and a fixation with breaking boundaries, particularly other people's. Lundy Bancrofts work predates MCKinnons and Bancroft would have no difficulty understanding and deconstructing it.

Swipe left for the next trending thread