A Trans Woman Was Asked To Leave The Women's Changing Room At A PureGym

[OnTheDarkSideOfTheSpoon]

A Trans Woman Was Asked To Leave The Women's Changing Room At A PureGym

Exclusive: The woman was told that "no men are allowed" in the women's changing room after gym staff received a complaint from another member.

www.buzzfeed.com/laurasilver/puregym-trans-woman-changing-room

How long until the backlash forces a change in policy do you think?

See this is where the whole thing falls down for me. I'd rather have a private space, all things being equal. So if I as offered a private space, I would use it. But Sarah wants access to a room of naked women.

Yes, me too. In fact, since this whole prospect of men turning up in my gym changing room became a possibility, I've changed (after 30 years changing happily in the open communal space) in a cubicle.

On the face of it, she should be willing to use the disabled area, as long as someone who needed it was not present. We don't know if this was a person with a GRC, and post op, but it kind of looks as if it wasn't.

So she probably WAS putting her own needs ahead of those of others in the changing area. Changing on the loo would not have killed her.

Damn, IN the loo, not on the loo. Though.... :-)

We really need to move away from the idea of genuine transwomen and non genuine ones. Changing rooms are segregated on the basis of sex. Men are males irrespective of whether they identify as a woman, as female, as a nappy-wearing furry creature or as Joan of bloody Arc.
If they don't want to get changed in the men's then they should get on and lobby for a third space.

"On the face of it, she should be willing to use the disabled area"

Why? They aren't disabled. Unless they identify as that too now, of course Why should they override the wishes of disabled people if they can't override women? I think it's OK to say, "if you're not a woman stay out of womens' spaces" and equally OK, and important, to say "if you're not disabled stay out of facilities for disabled people".

We really need to move away from the idea of genuine transwomen and non genuine ones. Changing rooms are segregated on the basis of sex. Men are males irrespective of whether they identify as a woman, as female, as a nappy-wearing furry creature or as Joan of bloody Arc.

Correct. It's nonsense like this that shoves men into women's prisons.

Re, changing in the loo would not have killed her.
There was no need for anyone to get changed in the loo, Sarah was offered a free disabled changing area and chose not to use it.
What the incidents does highlight is that gyms should offer a unisex changing room to keep trans people happy. The use of the disabled changing room should not become the solution. If space is a factor, reduce the size if the mens changing room to accommodate the new room; they may come around to widening bandwidth of men.
Thanks Pure Gyms for applying common sense amidst the current nonsense.

Since my previous post was deleted for using a swear word 🙄 I’ll replace that word

They actively want to be in the room while women are getting undressed.

And that is why I don’t want them in there

Women tend to be more considerate and empathic.

This person may have felt embarrassed about being caught out but the fact that they (I assume) as a male bodied person made semi /naked women feel upset/scared/uneasy in a women’s changing room says a hell of a lot about the actual emotional status of this person and people like them.

Feel like a woman my backside. Feel like an entitled man more like.

We really need to move away from the idea of genuine transwomen and non genuine ones.

Well put. If you have a penis, you change in the men's room and use men's lavatories.

If you have a penis, you change in the men's room and use men's lavatories.
Trouble is, this is seen as genitalia-monitoring. No one is going to ask people to drop their shorts to prove their castration entitlement, so what does this really mean? Doesn't it mean: You look like a bloke, you sound like a bloke, so no way Jose? And doesn't it exclude transmen? (Which no one seems to want to do.)

Or does it just mean If we see a penis in here, mate, you're out?

“I’m not changing in the disabled changing room I’m not disabled”.

But you’re not a woman either?

They don't like it up 'em , do they?
This has left me with the image of Corporal Jones and a bayonet guarding the women's changing rooms.

It means the free pass that in effect all men are being given via the trans agenda has to be stopped.
Societal norms need to be such that men can dress as women and use the men’s changing rooms, men need to be educated not to attack/ harrass other men who are gender non conforming.
Biologically born males need to be educated so that they understand their needs to express themselves do not trump the needs of women to feel safe.

How does the law currently stand?

I had presumed as self-id is not (yet) law then sex not gender is the protected characteristic.

So a trans person with a GRC can change in their preferred gender’d room; the self-id person cannot & the company involved has the right to invoke the law; i.e. seperated (by sex) changing facilities.

So I suppose any organisation which currently considers ‘case by case’ is an internal company decision issue. There is no obligation to provide single sex changing facilities.

I’m not sure what point I’m trying to make! Other than vote with our feet/money.

Has there been a test case yet? Or have they all capitulated to avoid the cost and bad press?
I think PureGym would have a strong case if challenged.

This thread is giving me the shudders. The only gym I've ever used was in a leisure centre, and the women's changing room was completely isolated at the back of the building, absolutely no passing traffic at that time of the day (it was intended for team use on the outdoor pitch, the gym was added later). Open plan, open showers, one exit. No-one to ask for help, no-one to call out to. Incredibly vulnerable, it really put me off going.

There's no way you could "ask someone to leave" in those circumstances.

And I promise i'm not being obtuse. I'd just like to know why the comfort of that 1 person is more important than the comfort of the other people in the room.

It isn't. And transactivists have done real number making people think it is. The protected characteristic of gender reassignment starts to apply as soon someone says they want to transition. If fact they don't even have to say it. You just have to think they are. If you discriminate against them on the assumption that they are trans, you are in breach.

However, it was entirely understood that there would be times when a transwoman should be excluded, with or without a GRC.

The key phrase is 'a proportionate means to a legitimate aim.'

In this case, the proportionate means was to offer them a third space. And the legitimate aim was to not piss off/intimidate/upset all your female members.

They could quite legitimately exclude this transwoman.

The tamtrumming and going to the press part is to convince other gyms to not abide by the equality act.

Women, all women, just need to understand that they do hold some power in this scenario. If they want to leave a gym in their droves on the basis that it has become mixed sex, avoidance of that is, in anyone's book, a legitimate aim for the gym to hold.

Be interesting to see what places like Curves do in the face of all this.

My first thought is about the "disabled" space. Where they were designed for disabled people to have access, they are actually accessible spaces because accessibility means everyone is included.
I wouldn't say that non-disabled people shouldn't use accessible spaces, but that more accessible spaces must be made available for people to use.

And yes, I think that people with penises should not be allowed to change communally with people with vulvas.
The converse is that I can't really imagine a transman wanting to shower and change in the men's changing room. Why? Because the patriarchy and toxuc masculinity ensures that it is fucking dangerous for a person with a vulva to change in a room with people with penises.
Whatever happens, it's always people with vulvas that suffer.
It doesn't matter that they identify as men, they'll never ever have the privilege that men have. And penis holders thar identify as women will always have the privilege that men have.
Transgenderism is stacked against people with vulvas, just like everything else.

(I am also aware that apparently Trans rights activists don't like us referring to body parts as belonging to nale or female people, and not long ago I got bollocked for using the word vagina ffs)

My Pure |Gym is open 24 hours a day but only staffed until 10pm. You need a code to get in to the womens chaging room after 10pm but if they started giving codes to people with penises for the female changing especially self identifying transwomen this could be very frightening late at night

2rebecca; bloody good point.