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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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Vice: how an online forum for moms became a toxic hotbed of transphobia

746 replies

NotTerfNorCis · 06/12/2018 18:16

broadly.vice.com/amp/en_us/article/a3mn9k/mumsnet-uk-mom-forum-terf-transphobia-feminism

Thought people might be interested in this article. One thing that strikes me is the 'reducing women to their biology' argument. Don't transwomen 'know' they're not male because their body feels wrong? Then it is about biology isn't it? Otherwise why do they think they're female?

OP posts:
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terryleather · 06/12/2018 20:13

Oh Lordy coffee liqueur......and Ina Barefoot Contessa Garten is a total food legend - Pomegranate Cosmos sound delish... I want!

BernardBlacksWineIcelolly · 06/12/2018 20:15

making Ina's mustard roasted fish right now

that woman knows food

Popchyk · 06/12/2018 20:17

Love Ina.

"First, start with a pound of budder…"

terryleather · 06/12/2018 20:19

How much do I want Ina's house in the Hamptons - wish I was sipping a Pomegranate Cosmo there right now while sampling the mustardy delights of that fish Bernard.

AltogetherAndrews · 06/12/2018 20:21

Toxic hotbed? How dare they mislabel us! This is clearly a nest of vipers and always has been!

Literal violence!

Materialist · 06/12/2018 20:23

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

R0wantrees · 06/12/2018 20:26

Fascinating that Eve Livingstone chose to link within her quote:

"A search of my own name returns a post calling me “a witless handmaiden” for supporting trans people on Twitter."

to the thread where a MN poster was commenting on Eve's retweeting the malicious myth that 'feminists were hiding razor blades behind stickers' along with an assertion of which was the 'evil side'

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3356992-Shon-Faye-and-the-Stickers?pg=5

blimey!

Vice: how an online forum for moms became a toxic hotbed of transphobia
Vice: how an online forum for moms became a toxic hotbed of transphobia
ILikeyourHairyHands · 06/12/2018 20:27

Whilst I enjoy a bit of recipe talk along with the next woman, I do find the talk of demographics in the article particularly informative. I always thought TRA's hated assumptions (about any fucking thing that takes their fancy), but skewing demographics and commensurately writing -off the opinions of thousands of anonymous folks due to presumed demo-fucking-graphics seems a particularly blind and desperate prod to discredit.

FFS TRAs, I fucking know it's too much to ask, but at least attempt a stab at consistency when censoring.

HumberElla · 06/12/2018 20:27

Excellent. So back to this bedding.
Cotton. 100% preferable (subject to any shortfall in supply due to vital maintenance of cotton ceiling). Nice festive theme.
If we get individual sets then, looking at the figures for FWR unique visitors in June 2018, we need to provide for 177,000 people. That’s a helluvalot of bedding to wash.
Alternatively we all top and tail in one big hotbed and invest in some lovely big bolsters and scatter cushions.

ILikeyourHairyHands · 06/12/2018 20:29

And yes, wot Materialist sed.

R0wantrees · 06/12/2018 20:33

In March of this year, former intern Emma Healey publicly criticized the site’s stance on trans rights and shared private internal communications on the subject. Healey alleged that the “vast majority” of trans discussion on Mumsnet “descends into scaremongering and hate speech,” claiming that the company dismissed staff concerns about the offensive tone of the posts.

thread which provoked Emma Healey's ire was discussing a NUS Women's Conference workshop run by Healey's friend Rowan Davis (non binary transwoman) & Eden Ladley (transwoman), both of whom were NUS officers.
The workshop & slideshow was called 'How to Deal With Terfs'

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3222263-Slide-show-on-How-to-Deal-with-TERFs?pg=1#prettyPhoto[gallery77202844]/0/

SunsetBeetch · 06/12/2018 20:35

I've never owned a bolster. I am working class though

OlennasWimple · 06/12/2018 20:38

Is the Sarah Pederson research the outcome of the thread a while back asking MNers if they were OK with their posts being analysed for some academic research? (To which lots of people said "nah, count me out")

GrinitchSpinach · 06/12/2018 20:38

Jane Clare Jones on Luce Irigaray in the New Statesman (2014):

Her painstaking archaeology revealed the way that philosophy, in its efforts to erect the male subject as an entirely self-made man, consistently erased the relational mirroring on which our identities all depend. This philosophical sleight-of-hand, Irigaray suggested, represented a wider tendency to appropriate and simultaneously erase the work – and the existence – of women. It was indicative of what she described as a general gesture of cultural matricide. “All western culture,” she wrote in 1981, “rests on the murder of the mother.”

www.newstatesman.com/voices/2014/05/jane-clare-jones-luce-irigaray-murder-mother

Melanippe · 06/12/2018 20:38

So, does this mean I can identify as middle class now? I'd love to, but every time I open my mouth I betray my lowly back ground. I am white though, just like Joss "tainted love" Prior is. If Joss were a feminist, would Joss also be a white feminist? Because if so, then Joss's argument rather falls on stony ground there, however as Joss clearly isn't a feminist, this is merely a thought experiment, it still has more value than that word vomit though, which is jolly.

R0wantrees · 06/12/2018 20:41

Glosswitch in NewStatesman:

10 MAY 2018
'The demonisation of Mumsnet is just the latest incarnation of witch-hunting
Naturally, it frightens people to think of what a group of mothers might actually demand.'
(extract)

"The deliberate withdrawal of women from men has almost always been seen as a potentially dangerous or hostile act, a conspiracy, a subversion, a needless and grotesque thing.” Thus wrote Adrienne Rich in 1976’s Of Woman Born, her seminal exploration of the politics of motherhood. From the workers gossiping in the spinning circle to old wives passing down knowledge of contraception and abortion, women gathered in isolation have long been considered untrustworthy. What might they be saying? What could they be plotting? And how, above all, might they be controlled?

It’s a problem that’s never gone away, though the context has changed. Anxiety over women’s speech – fuelling violent backlash in the form of witch trials and scold’s bridles – arose at a time when, to quote Marina Warner, “women dominated the webs of information and power; the neighbourhood, the village, the well, the washing place, the shops, the stalls, the street were their arena of influence, not only the household”.

One could say things are different in 2018. Changing work patterns and the greater separation of public and private space have led to a fragmentation of female-led domestic communities. As the protagonist of Elisa Albert’s 2015 novel After Birth puts it:

Two hundred years ago – hell, one hundred years ago – you’d have a child surrounded by other women: your mother, her mother, sisters, cousins, sisters-in-law, mother-in-law. […] They’d help you, keep you company, show you how. Then you’d do the same. […] Now maybe you make a living, maybe you get to know yourself on your own terms. […] And then: unceremoniously sliced in fucking half, handed a newborn, home to your little isolation tank, get on with it, and don’t you dare post too many pictures. You don’t want to be one of those.

She’s right. While the work of gestation, birth and mothering hasn’t gone anywhere, the gatherings that sustained it – and scared the hell out of men in the process – have disintegrated. Still, though. There’s always Mumsnet." (continues)

www.newstatesman.com/politics/feminism/2018/05/demonisation-mumsnet-just-latest-incarnation-witch-hunting

deepwatersolo · 06/12/2018 20:44

Judging from the article you‘d think it is mumsnetters who piss all over other people‘s office doors and shower them with rape threats.

Macareaux · 06/12/2018 20:46

Hi Joss and Eve

I've been here thirteen years. And I want to tell you that it wasn't the seriously intelligent women of Mumsnet that made me into a "hardcore t*rf".

It was the transactivists who did that. Always wanting more. First they wanted the word women. Then they demanded the word female. Then our private spaces. Then our sports. They want everything. They want to colonise us. Threaten us with axes. Replace us on shortlists and quotas.

So if you think Mumsnet is the problem, I have some very bad news for you. Women everywhere are waking up to your ideology. Mumsnet is the least of your problems.

Your worst enemy is yourself. Overreaching. Overplaying your hand. Defending the indefensible.

The tide has turned. You can throw rocks at the sassy, seriously smart women of Mumsnet. But it will just make the ripples spread ever wider as more and more women see your ideology for the threadbare nonsense it is.

LangCleg · 06/12/2018 20:50

I thought we were a portal not a hotbed. We got a TARDIS emoji all special-like and now they've rebranded us again. My saggy tits can't keep up.

2rebecca · 06/12/2018 20:51

I'm mainly surprised Joss is a woman. I had heard the name and presumed it was a bloke as the Josses I know are all male. I suppose she doesn't like us women much.
I'd been on Mumsnet for several years before coming hear and like others it was the madness and misogyny of the self ID debate that made me think wtf? And the TWAW mantra that defied biology and common sense.
I don't see being white as an issue. I live in Scotland. Most people here are white. That's nothing to be either proud or ashamed of. My skin colour is what it is. My eyes are blue and my hair is/was red. Does that get negative diversity/ woke points too? Maybe being ginger gets me plus points. Tim Minchin did a song about being ginger. Does that give me deprivation points that make up for being white?
All seriously silly. I don't monitor any TRA sites. I have a life. Apart from the professional researchers I'm surprised they can be bothered with us if we are so awful. Just get on with your lives and talk to people you like.

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 06/12/2018 20:51

Cotton. 100% preferable

I'm not entirely sure about that. I am a recent convert to linen bedding...

R0wantrees · 06/12/2018 20:54

I'm mainly surprised Joss is a woman. I had heard the name and presumed it was a bloke as the Josses I know are all male. I suppose she doesn't like us women much.

Joss is a transwoman.
She definitely doesn't like some women.

Ereshkigal · 06/12/2018 20:54

Is the Sarah Pederson research the outcome of the thread a while back asking MNers if they were OK with their posts being analysed for some academic research? (To which lots of people said "nah, count me out")

Oh good call, possibly!

Ereshkigal · 06/12/2018 20:56

Judging from the article you‘d think it is mumsnetters who piss all over other people‘s office doors and shower them with rape threats.

Indeed.