Nic Williams on Woman's Hour (Tuesday) talking about sport and gender identity

[OrchidInTheSun]

twitter.com/fairplaywomen/status/1069731404488077318?s=21

Nic Williams will be debating with Beth Jones, who is an academic at Nottingham Trent www.ntu.ac.uk/staff-profiles/social-sciences/dr-beth-jones

My observation on TRAs speaking on WH was a sweeping statement of a group, ok I won't post such opinions on MN again.

No problem, Lang.
And sorry to hear that our mail didn't clarify matters, Giles, why don't you reply and we can get to the bottom of it because now we're confused too.

Apologies for crashing the thread, everyone.

What's the point.

You know, I know, everyone on this thread knows.

There was a similar post on the Twitter thread so you mistbrealise it's nothing nore than a complete misunderstanding and you let someone else's paranoia dictate what I and others post.

If Dr Jones isn't trans (not interested in speculating here, just saying that being a sporty transwoman might explain such an investment)...why on earth does she do it?? I just don't understand it.

Best guess is that that is where the funding was available. It's not easy to get funding for a PhD (possibly harder, I would guess, if your first degree is from Nottingham Trent rather than Russell Group), so perhaps she just went where the money led her.

I notice from her profile that she's also interested in eating disorders and body image. All she has to do is join the dots.

Dragon3 I assumed Beth Jones was trans, not a speculation but an acknowledgement that the views put forward are pro men at the expense of women ....then again that viewpoint doesn’t say much for Ruth Hunt, Linda Riley et al.

Seems you cannot talk, with facts and empathy, about mental health issues and beliefs either.

@OlennasWimple

If it's not testosterone and male physique, why are 13-14 year old boys running faster than elite, trained women (possibly) with additional help?

I notice on the peak flow chart a 15 yr old boy (or even 13, 14) potentially has better lung capacity than a female at her prime aged 30.

I really don't know how this translates to athletic ability though. I'm sure there are other factors in the mix.

It's almost as if males have an inbuilt physical advantage over females in almost every aspect isn't it? Especially as we now learn that our lady brains are also holding us back

Dr Beth Jones

www.ntu.ac.uk/staff-profiles/social-sciences/dr-beth-jones

BSc Psychology
MSc Health Psychology
PhD Transgender Health

It should be noted that Psychology (along with Philosophy - Rachel McKinnon) is not a "pure science", such as Maths, Physics or Chemistry, all of which are logic, research and undeniable proof based.
The leading advisor to the IOC - Joanna Harper is also transgender.

www.ozy.com/rising-stars/meet-the-leading-expert-on-trans-athletes/74134

This is a bit like leaving the fox in charge of the henhouse.

WH have (rather cleverly, imo) given the trans lobby a platform on national radio and played it pretty even-handedly. If the latter have unwittyingly come across as total numpties, it's entirely their own doing.

Janice Turner on Twitter

Here an academic says women athletes would try harder if they competed against men. And believes all sport should be mixed sex but doesn’t care if women never made the teams. This is where denial of human biology intrinsic to extreme trans dogma leads. Goodbye, women’s sports.

mobile.twitter.com/VictoriaPeckham/status/1069936009884983297

Hear, hear, Janice

How is delusional claptrap like this even given space on the radio
And spouted by someone who is meant to be educated person
Jeez 😟

timelady that part made me so angry.

Have namechanged but I wanted to tell a story

A long time ago in another country I played in a netball team where the opposing team had some males in it - who identified as female.

It was awful - I am very tall but the males were stronger and out-jumped me every single time.

It demotivated me and to be honest I was not a professional but I cared about my sports. I was expected as was my team to suck it up and we did but the feeling of unfairness has never ever left me - it still pisses me off.

Also don't want to out myself but my Dad coached some sportswomen to national level so I got an insight as to just how bloody hard women and girls train and for how long they train for years so that comment pissed me off.

I am old enough to remember who Serena and martina were ridiculed for their muscles and made out to be men like and it also really pissed off my Dad, who also really championed women still playing sports / training past puberty.

My dad used to say it will be easier for his granddaughters and great grand daughters to undertake sports

I can just imagine him rolling in his grave hearing women's hour.

All this intervention by the mods is only helping the gender critical cause. All the ridiculous emails they're forced to send out. And all the confusion and indignation on the thread.

All the journos, fence sitters and MPs who are reading this (and they are), are seeing firsthand what silencing and censorship looks like over something as truly risible as objecting to 'women can't beat men because of their psychological cap'.

The insane lengths to which some people try to support misogynistic ideologies at the expense of women, is simply bursting out of this thread.

And every report is pouring petrol on it.

I feel like they forget that women have as much right to say no to things as men do.

Even if for arguments sake it was fair physically... why are we not allowed to simply say no?

With all of it? Just no.

The reason we can't is because we are women. If men want to say no... they don't have to campaign anywhere near as hard to be heard

I wish they had a female sports woman on that programme.

How can an academic come on that show and insinuate that it is women's fault they are not fast enough and they would have to try harder if they forced to compete with men.

MNHQ, you sometimes edit both titles and content. Would it be fairer if you just edit or remove any comment that causes a report to be upheld?

A career ending move for sure if any professional sports woman was to directly enter that debate. I seem to remember one woman - the female cyclist (was it?) who complained about unfairness was almost immediately making a full public apology, retracted her complaint and issued a statement of support for the winning individual. Fairly clear she was pressured into doing a u turn.

Yeah I think sports women have it hard enough

Retired sports women however... would be good

Joanna harper, transwoman and advisor to the IOC quoted as saying "In addition to opening the door wide for trans men, the new policy removes the need for women to undergo gender-reassignment surgery to compete."

So we have a transwoman advising that male bodied people do not need to have surgery to be able to compete against (as) women. Hmmm.

Maybe slightly off topic but I was just listening to Adam Hills on R4 talking about the paralympics and it made me think that it is a similar argument. He was saying how he loves watching someone with a disability compete at their absolute best. They are elite sportspeople - but they're never going to be as fast/strong as the abled bodied athletes.

There is a reason why we segregate sports by sex, and by disability. If you take that segregation away then it just leaves able-bodied men winning everything.

My son is 11 and swims competitively. At the moment all the kids are working hard to get county qualifying times. In the 10/11 age groups the girls times are faster than the boys. From 12 and up, the boys times are faster and by the time you get to 16, then the boys qualifying times are a lot faster. It's just common sense.

It seems that most sports associations will bow to the IOC if they have not already drunk the Kool Aid. We cannot expect current athletes to do much about this so what can be done?

A list of sponsors for the next Olympics is available. Many of them are Japanese but there are some UK names. I suppose we could write to our MPs and the sports minister, not sure who that is now, members of the IOC, sponsors, heads of sports organisations although we know that many are very close to Stonewall etc.

It's not acceptable that a load of mainly men with advice from a trans women decide on whether women's sport will be obliterated.

for your post seeza I share your fury!

WFH, Mumsnet!!! I didn’t use any of the terms you had in your guild lines! Why have two of my comments been deleted? Are certain posters being targeted by TRAs? What’s going on?

And of course there is the issue of women athletes managing periods, fertility, pregnancy, recovering from birth or caesarean, breastfeeding etc alongside their competitive career, maybe even having to fit in with Olympic cycles which are so crucial to sport funding in the UK.

Of course there will be women who can't or don't wan't to have children or whose sports means that you retire at a young age anyway, who will not have the same issues or the dilemma of how and when to fit it in, but transwomen will never have that to contend with.

Just as with maternity leave and women of child bearing age, these biological issues and differences exist and some people will undoubtedly favour an athlete who is guaranteed not to take time off to be pregnant or give birth.