Nic Williams on Woman's Hour (Tuesday) talking about sport and gender identity

[OrchidInTheSun]

twitter.com/fairplaywomen/status/1069731404488077318?s=21

Nic Williams will be debating with Beth Jones, who is an academic at Nottingham Trent www.ntu.ac.uk/staff-profiles/social-sciences/dr-beth-jones

People aren't to blame for their intelligence level or poor mental health.

The funders, employers and media are responsible for failing the public and allowing people out of their depth to gain undue influence, behaving inappropriately and without challenge and management.

Look, you just need to take ANY athletics event. Let’s say the great north run. Plot Male times and Female times. Averages and winning times

There's some decent analysis of male/female records for the same event and using comparable sizes in the post I quoted upthread:

fondofbeetles.wordpress.com/2018/10/01/harder-better-faster-stronger-why-we-must-protect-female-sports/

If you reduced a man’s testosterone to the lowest level of the women’s range he would STILL have all those advantages.

bowl, this might be an unanswerable question, but if a boy took puberty blockers, and cross sex hormones, do you have any idea how that would affect those parts of his physiology that would otherwise give him a natural advantage?

I listened to this and thought Nic was great.

I had forgotten about my own experience of mixed sex teams. At work we had a mixed sex team sport which we played against other firms in a summer league (in the winter i played in a female only team) .

A few observations. The rules stated you needed a minimum of 3 women in each team (of 11). There was never any trouble finding the 8 men, but each week there were only ever 3 women to play, which meant we never had subs. Also the mixed game was much faster, more intense and more physical then when i played with just females. So we had a much harder time physically (and with no substitutes). Women would play a few games here and there but were less enamoured of playing as it was basically just less fun, always being outrun or outstrengthened (for want of a better word). Many only played 1 match and decided it wasn't for them. Also the captain (male) was a bit of a nob and wouldn't listen to where you wanted to play, but would put you on a unfamiliar position, so could be even more disadvantaged (like putting a striker in defence). This rarely happened in the women's only games.

Finally at our prize giving evening, the captain got drunk and came on to one of the women players, when she( nicely) formed him down, he turned very nasty and told her she was shit at the sport. Charming.

I played for 3 seasons and was relieved to give up when i was pregnant. Most of the guys in the team were great, but they were all physically much stronger and you only need 1 guy to be a nob to spoil it all on and off the pitch.

There are so many posts being deleted on this thread...

Hi all,
We've made a few deletions on this one, so we're just flagging our guidelines again to keep everyone on the straight and narrow. It is important that we don't let the 'civil discourse' standard slip in order that this conversation can continue to be had on MN.
As you were, everyone, apologies for the interruption.

What the hell did I say
No one has said abything that isn't try or wasnt blindingly obvious from evidence posted

Just imagine if Usain Bolt was to come out of retirement and identify as a woman, it would be laughable if it wasn't so serious.

Quite. No amount of female hormones is going to make Usain Bolt slower than the fastest woman.

We'll buzz you about that, Giles, as it's very possible your post was deleted for the right reasons but you hadn't actually done anything wrong, iyswwm? We'll email you in a mo, don't worry.

So you can't post about intelligence blog.adioma.com/9-types-of-intelligence-infographic/ or you can't post about people who appeared on women's hour?

Hope - please explain what the deleted posts did wrong. I've been dipping in and out all morning but haven't noticed anything breaking guidelines?

Only just had a chance to listen to this on catch-up.

I won't reiterate the (excellent) points that have already been made but I noticed that Jane Garvey referred to transwomen and women and transmen and men throughout the programme. At no point did she refer to 'cis', other than to ask Dr Handmaiden to explain what she meant by it.

for JG

I don't know if this will be delete too, I did state that I am dyslexic and have poor linguistic intelligence when I posted , so I don't understand why my posts were deleted. I was suggesting research into helping people with poor intelligence levels, I use state there was no blame in not being fantastic at thing and that's why I stated my weaknesses.

Is it because I suggested what weaknesses people have who went on women's hour?

People post about various people in the media and critique them all over Mumsnet.

as ever, anyone listening with an open mind would recognise the vacuity of Dr (!!) Beth Wilson. So we should encourage transwomen into sport for their emotional health - sidestepping women's health without a backward look. And, oh yes, women should just train a bit harder to catch up.
And REALLY not listening at the beginning when JG suggested that perhaps millions of women do not see themselves as cis women. She went on and finished with saying, so yes, there are millions of (wait for it) CIS WOMEN. Really really not listening.
And she's a doctor.

As the mother of a daughter, who in her early teens is already noticing how the boys play rougher/faster/hog the ball/only pass to other boys etc etc her school has introduced girls football club, specifically so the girls can get a look in. I can't believe that silly woman on the radio thinks we don't need single sex sports. For me its such a no brainer, and I genuinely worry about the future of womens sports if transwomen compete against women & take the medals....or even take the place of a woman within a team.

This thread is clearly making people nervous.

Under His Eye.

I can't think of another example of a woman devoting such a large part of their professional life to including male bodied transwomen in female sport. It's odd. Genuinely can't see why a woman would actively pursue this path in the face of so little evidence to support it.

If Dr Jones isn't trans (not interested in speculating here, just saying that being a sporty transwoman might explain such an investment)...why on earth does she do it?? I just don't understand it.

Anyway I won't post anymore today, I don't want to derail, I wanted to add to the general discussion.

Hi Langcleg, without going through them individually (because TSSDNCOP ) mostly general slippage into using descriptives that haven't been okay for a while and are easily avoided. General rule of thumb is: if something can be reported, it will be reported.

I don't know whether to laugh or cry at that email you just sent HQ.

It most definately isn't what you think and I think everyone on the thread knows what I meant

But nice of you to not issue a strike for something i didn't do or say

Hold on, so there are different growth charts for boys and girls from the age of 1 year up but there's no physical difference between the sexes that makes any difference in sport?

I am so sick of this nonsense. Why can't more rational people speak up? Who cares if someone feels like the are of the opposite gender? If taking hormones makes you less likely to win in competition with other males, you make your choice. We all make choices that have consequences. If staying at the top of your sport (if you were ever at the top) is more important than your stunning and brace feminine identity, choose the sport. Otherwise take the hormone pills and cheer the women on from the sidelines. We segregate sport by SEX. Some people are better at some sports than others. If there's no difference between the sexes why has it always been set up way? Why is it fucking impossible for women to be faster/stronger than men in so many sports? Now it's apparently acceptable for an ACADEMIC to say it's because women don't try hard enough? What the fuck?

(because TSSDNCOP

The Secret Service Does Not Comment On Procedure

Okay, terminology fails. Thanks, Hope.

Christmas - look at the list of no-go terms on the sticky and you'll be fine if you avoid them.