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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Feminism: chat

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Original poster

Nice thread with lovely wishes for transpeople

134 replies

interestingdebatetoday · 01/12/2018 21:54

Can we have a thread where we just say nice things we wish for transpeople by gender critical feminists? We are always framed as horrible bigots when actually a lot of concerns stem from a place of being caring maternal women.

So actually what do we think? Rather than what they (TRA's I mean, I know there are a few GC TW who understand our motives are not transphobia or bigotry) say we think because we are trying to keep our own rights

I'll start with a few of my own thoughts:

  • I wish for transpeople to be comfortable in their bodies, I feel gender dysphoria must be incredibly difficult to live with and I hope that they find support available to help them and aren't stuck with waiting lists that last years or fobbed off with ten mins when they do want support

  • I wish for transpeople to have safe access to drugs they may need that have a decent safety rate and have been tested for long enough that they aren't being human ginea pigs or suffering horrific side effects

  • I wish for transpeople to have safe spaces for transpeople in prisons, shelters etc

  • I wish for transpeople not to be unable to enjoy sex as a side effect of drugs or surgery

... I'm hoping that this will continue in a nice way... and perhaps the debates can stay on other threads so it is absolutely clear that we don't hate transpeople, we would just like to keep our own rights but we are actually pretty thoughtful and concerned in some of our arguments for fellow human beings

OP posts:
cockBlocker · 02/12/2018 15:59

kesstrel - there are many discussions of transmen on MN, they are not forgotten by us as they seem to be by many TRAs, but they tend not to be the ones threatening violence towards gender critical women, nor does the threat to women's rights involve them so directly.

CuriousaboutSamphire · 02/12/2018 16:03

Though Man Has Baby tends to get a similarly wtf response Smile

Prawnofthepatriarchy · 02/12/2018 16:06

Kesstrel I went to a genderist meeting by mistake last year (I read the title as implying it was gender critical). One of the speakers was a transman. I was uncomfortable before the session started at the bollocks being spouted during previous sessions but I found listening to the transman so distressing I had to leave.

The self hatred, the denial and lesbophobia of this very young person were heartbreaking. Imo what this person needed were lesbian role models and a hefty dose of second wave feminism.

That's what I wish for transmen. They're physically more vulnerable than transwomen as testosterone does much more harm - and more quickly - to a female body than oestrogen does to a male one. Binders destroy healthy tissue and can cause serious harm including broken ribs. I dread to think of the detransitioners.

kesstrel · 02/12/2018 16:09

Thanks to everyone who responded. I suppose my thoughts were prompted by the opening of the thread referring specifically to "transpeople" rather than to TRAs. I know transmen are considered on many other threads, though.

kesstrel · 02/12/2018 16:11

Prawn Yes, agree totally. I suppose if I'd come across the thread on page 1, that's something I would have said - that, and hoping that research could eventually get to the bottom of genuine gender dysphoria, and come up with a better answer.

LangCleg · 02/12/2018 16:41

Or do I need to self flagellate for wanting to be a nice person to continue engaging on Feminist chat?

Oh do grow up. Nobody's telling you not to engage. People are telling you that you can't control how people respond. You're being childish because you started a thread and it didn't go how you'd hoped. We all get our arsed handed to us here at some point.

Knicknackpaddyflak · 02/12/2018 17:44

Is there going to be a nice thread with lovely wishes for disabled people? Or a nice thread with lovely wishes for lesbian people? Or multi racial people?

Cos I tick all those boxes and frankly I'm cringing at the thought, alongside wondering what 'lovely wishes' are and how they're helpful. I think most people would think please don't patronise me.

EmpressAdultHumanFemale · 02/12/2018 17:45

We are always framed as horrible bigots when actually a lot of concerns stem from a place of being caring maternal women.

I'm not remotely maternal & never have been. But I do feel terrible for all those younger lesbians who have either been caught up in the gender dysphoria contagion & damaged their bodies, or have felt forced to accept male partners in order to avoid being labelled transphobic.

SpartacusAutisticusAHF · 02/12/2018 17:45

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Truckingonandon · 02/12/2018 18:00

Thanks to those who understood? Patronising much. Everybody understood. Just cos opposing views have been expressed doesn't mean people haven't understood you.

Original poster
interestingdebatetoday · 02/12/2018 18:04

This thread could just die a death. Seems to be being kept alive by those who say they object to it in the first place

OP posts:
FissionChips · 02/12/2018 18:14

Why don’t you try listening and engaging with the points posters have made?

Original poster
interestingdebatetoday · 02/12/2018 18:28

Because to be quite frank my voice isn't wanted here. I post on namechanges frequently but this one - the 2 threads I have started I have been accused of being a community disruptor.

The suspicion levelled at me personally is in my book rather rediculous

The thread isn't being used for the purpose I began it and I've explained myself multiple times over.

So no energy for it here. Will keep myself to the other boards on MN

OP posts:
FissionChips · 02/12/2018 18:42

But your voice would be welcomed here if you actually bothered to sincerely engage.

Original poster
interestingdebatetoday · 02/12/2018 18:48

So my multiple posts explaining myself were not engaging.

On both threads.

OP posts:
FissionChips · 02/12/2018 18:52

Well, I’ve not read the other thread but on this one you’ve been defensive, I wouldn’t say you’ve appeared to actually listen to the points posters have made at all.

TheCountryGirl · 02/12/2018 19:33

OP you really think misogynistic men who demand access to women's spaces are going to care one bit about niceties from women? They won't listen and they won't care. Just like YOU are not listening either.

Truckingonandon · 02/12/2018 20:22

You are in transmit mode, not receive, which is preaching basically and will never encourage anyone to engage in any subject.

ALittleBitofVitriol · 02/12/2018 20:53

Sorry that the thread didn't go as you expected op!

The thing is, be nice is a stick to beat women down with. Especially on this topic. Engaging on the level of 'prove you're not a bigot' is conceding some false ground.

I can never be sufficiently nice for TRAs to actually listen. Believe me I've tried. I have come to the conclusion that the opposite is needed to actually get people thinking. A cold dose of hard truths is a stark comparison to the warm, glowy feting.

Every single uncomfortable conversation I've had with genderists gets derailed with anecdotes designed to induce guilt. Just be nice is code for just shut up.

So I'm sure you're a lovely person op, who had good intentions. But I won't get drawn into the prove a negative (not bigot) game.
My words and arguments stand for themselves and no, they're not all nice.

cockBlocker · 02/12/2018 21:26

You may just have wished to be nice, OP, and I wouldn't want you to stop posting, but in the current climate of constant demands from TRAs playing on our female socialisation with emotional blackmail, to be nice and shut up or else die in a fire, your post hits too raw a nerve. You also have to realise that trying to dictate the contents of a feminist forum, especially when you're explicitly asking women to just be nice and not debate anything in the way you did, gets people's backs up. It's important that women don't feel they have to prove they're 'good mummy' before they're allowed to have an opinion. I don't want trans people to listen to me because I'm being submissive/nice, but because they recognise that women are entitled to have an opinion on issues that directly impact them. I want them to engage with our views because they're valid, that should be enough. You're suggesting that we should centre trans people on a feminist discussion board in case trans people are reading, but the transrational readers already know we aren't 'debating their existence' and as for TRA's, many of us have tried to be kind time and time again and still been told to f* off and die unless there is absolute submission to the TWAW doctrine, so sadly there's little to be gained here.

MaisyPops · 02/12/2018 21:36

Great posts ALittleBitofVitriol and cockBlocker.
It's a shame other posters couldn't see (chose to deliberately avoid acknowledging) what the OP was trying to do.

sackrifice · 02/12/2018 21:53

It's a shame other posters couldn't see (chose to deliberately avoid acknowledging) what the OP was trying to do.

Huh? I can see clearly what the OP was doing.

SuperLambBananas · 02/12/2018 21:59

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

Original poster
interestingdebatetoday · 02/12/2018 22:01

Please feel free to check with @MNHQ then

I've been around bloody years ffs!!!!

OP posts:
sprouts21 · 02/12/2018 22:02

I don't think I can post what I really think about this thread. I've got better things to do than worry if a random man can still have sex after his surgery. I couldn't give a toss about it.