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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Feminism: chat

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Original poster

Nice thread with lovely wishes for transpeople

134 replies

interestingdebatetoday · 01/12/2018 21:54

Can we have a thread where we just say nice things we wish for transpeople by gender critical feminists? We are always framed as horrible bigots when actually a lot of concerns stem from a place of being caring maternal women.

So actually what do we think? Rather than what they (TRA's I mean, I know there are a few GC TW who understand our motives are not transphobia or bigotry) say we think because we are trying to keep our own rights

I'll start with a few of my own thoughts:

I wish for transpeople to be comfortable in their bodies, I feel gender dysphoria must be incredibly difficult to live with and I hope that they find support available to help them and aren't stuck with waiting lists that last years or fobbed off with ten mins when they do want support
I wish for transpeople to have safe access to drugs they may need that have a decent safety rate and have been tested for long enough that they aren't being human ginea pigs or suffering horrific side effects
I wish for transpeople to have safe spaces for transpeople in prisons, shelters etc
I wish for transpeople not to be unable to enjoy sex as a side effect of drugs or surgery

... I'm hoping that this will continue in a nice way... and perhaps the debates can stay on other threads so it is absolutely clear that we don't hate transpeople, we would just like to keep our own rights but we are actually pretty thoughtful and concerned in some of our arguments for fellow human beings

OP posts:

deepwatersolo · 02/12/2018 14:34

If YOU disagree with the thread, YOU are not being asked to comment on it

Now who is telling who to shut up?

Original poster

interestingdebatetoday · 02/12/2018 14:35

It's not telling you to shut up at all... there are plenty of other threads available for your voice

This one clearly was not for your particular voice - and for others who did want to

OP posts:

cockBlocker · 02/12/2018 14:36

If YOU disagree with the thread, YOU are not being asked to comment on it. Nobody is hounding you down saying make sure you put your nice comment in
Yes, but this is an open forum, if we have a criticism of the thread we are also free to post it.
What is not fair is you telling other women to shut up if they wish to speak or do want to contribute and suggesting that commenting nicely harms feminists
Again, it's an open forum, you can comment as you wish, others are free to engage critically also.

LangCleg · 02/12/2018 14:38

It's a forum, dear. You can't control what gets posted. Any more than we can stop TRAs coming here for disruption purposes. It is what it is. You asked for emotional labour from women. Some women took issue with you doing that. You moaning about it won't change any minds.

deepwatersolo · 02/12/2018 14:40

This one clearly was not for your particular voice

Who gets to decide that?

CuriousaboutSamphire · 02/12/2018 14:40

It is an open forum

You asked a question

You now don't want any voices of dissent

You did post in FWR

This one clearly was not for your particular voice Is telling us who you will/won't accept. #nodebate

Original poster

interestingdebatetoday · 02/12/2018 14:42

Oh whatever. There's no point in the thread.

Cheers to those who understood it. It's lost its purpose. My voice will go elsewhere

OP posts:

NotANotMan · 02/12/2018 14:43

I wish for the concept of self id gender to be seriously challenged and pulled apart so that transsexuals with sex dysphoria can retain their status and protections without having them destroyed by the transgender umbrella

I wish for young women who think they are boys or 'not girls' because they reject feminine stereotypes and fear sex based oppression to get awakened to feminism and start to take pride in being women and find their sisterhood

I wish for narcissistic young men who identify as women to gain some perspective and some useful things to occupy their attention and focus

LangCleg · 02/12/2018 14:47

See you later alligator.

CuriousaboutSamphire · 02/12/2018 14:57

interesting don't do that!

You're only creating an echo chamber for yourself.

Re-read the posts you dislike. Think about what was posted. Reflect on it, reflect on what you posted, why it may not have read how you expected it to!

If I told you that many other posters here posted in a very similar way a year or so ago would you believe me? I'll say now, I did. Often. And I too thought the dissenting voices were mean, nasty, missing my point. Until one day someone told me that my 'voice' was too accepting of my socialisation and it was irritating to other posters. Plainly put I came across as a bit of a plonker with all my sorry buts and pleases.

I did some more reading and realised they were right. I was apologising for the plain speaking of other women. So I stopped!

happydappy2 · 02/12/2018 15:04

I really can't see the relevance of this thread on a feminist board, when we currently have male bodied people locked up with women in prison....& attacking women.

Womens rights to sex segregated spaces are being eroded.... there is a clear safeguarding problem embracing all our schools, affecting our children with a very harmful ideology that it is possible to be born in the wrong body....these realities are more important to me, than sending good wishes to any other human, no matter how they identify.

cockBlocker · 02/12/2018 15:06

interestingdebatetoday - you may have had good intentions, but anyone who has survived narcissistic abuse knows that explaining/defending yourself against the groundless accusations of the abuser is only playing into their hands by letting them control the narrative, it is not recommended. If I were to engage with this post as you intended, I would only have something extremely banal to say: trans people are people like any other. I don't have any specific wishes for them different than for any other human beings. I would respond the same if being asked to give lovely wishes for black people, Muslims, Jews etc. We're all human, that's it.

Original poster

interestingdebatetoday · 02/12/2018 15:12

But we do have things other than banal things to say, we say them across other threads

This wasn't to those who are abusing women and girls

Like for instance - we wish our (hypothetical in my case) daughters would not be preyed upon by charities who tell them that their parents will not support them through their identity conflicts

Or we wish there was actual long term research being funded for them

OP posts:

deepwatersolo · 02/12/2018 15:18

But we do have things other than banal things to say, we say them across other threads

That was what stuck out to me when I read your original post and what I first commented on: we say all these things in all the other threads. How we wish no discrimination, good health care,.... Constantly. So, if people read these threads and still think we're 'horrible bigots', then I dare say we are not the problem and repeating the same stuff in an extra thread won't change how anyone frames us.

Original poster

interestingdebatetoday · 02/12/2018 15:22

But if you're a for example 17 year old woman who is wondering if you are trans...

Or a 45 year old man who is wondering about detransitioning

Or a ... insert hundreds of examples...

What will you read? One MN thread and decide it's full of bigots and go away to the crowd who is open armed

Or will you carry on reading through each thread to determine if actually the GC women are bigots or not

I know what I would do if I was that 17 year old, the easiest option

OP posts:

LangCleg · 02/12/2018 15:28

We are here, talking to each other. Stop asking us to perform labour for imaginary people. Or, carry on asking, and get women telling you that they think it's a load of old bollocks. Up to you.

deepwatersolo · 02/12/2018 15:33

What will you read? One MN thread and decide it's full of bigots and go away to the crowd who is open armed

Can you point me to a thread from which an openminded trans-person would come away with the impression MN is full of bigots?

And would a thread that does not discuss policies but is only about wishing well, change any minds? If I know MNers are generally against the informed consent model and if I consider them bigoted for it, nothing will change if they wish me 'access to science based high quality health care'. I'll still think they are making up all their little silly arguments to deny me an informed consent clinic, because they are bigots.

cockBlocker · 02/12/2018 15:33

We don't need to prostrate ourselves, our arguments speak for themselves, these are what need to be engaged with without having to plead for anyone to like us, it's pure misogyny to suggest we need to beg for approval before we can speak.
And TRAs are NOT open-armed to detransitioners.

ADastardlyThing · 02/12/2018 15:40

Having had an ED in my youth I know exactly how it feels to look in the mirror and see a fiction. luckily I had a lot of support and with the right help was able to realise that the person i was seeing in the mirror simply wasn't there, the 'fat' me didn't exist. A man who looks in the mirror and sees a woman (and vice versa) is exactly the same, seeing a cruel fiction.

Please get help, the right help, you deserve it even though you may feel there is a stigma around mental health issues. There isn't.

CuriousaboutSamphire · 02/12/2018 15:42

Or a ... insert hundreds of examples... So you want us to post thinking/self editing in consideration of all sorts of hypothetical posters rather than be honest and respond to the posters who actually are engaging?

Whataboutery at its finest!

Original poster

interestingdebatetoday · 02/12/2018 15:43

Oh ffs. You didn't want the thread. You ran it out.

Congrats. Job done!

Or do I need to self flagellate for wanting to be a nice person to continue engaging on Feminist chat?

OP posts:

BeyondVicious · 02/12/2018 15:44

I want everyone who is ill in any way or non-conforming in any way, to be considered equal to those who are not. "Trans" is irrelevant here though, I'm with Julia Long on that.

And WLS (what Lang said).

kesstrel · 02/12/2018 15:47

The controversy on this thread is interesting. That way so many comments are entirely about male-born TRAs, ignoring transmen, makes me wonder something I hadn't thought of before: if feminism is supposed to centre women, have transmen forfeited their right to be included as part of that centring? Or is it just that women are so angry about aggressive transactivist transwomen that we tend to forget about the transmen when something like this thread comes up?

cockBlocker · 02/12/2018 15:54

Congrats. Job done!

Or do I need to self flagellate for wanting to be a nice person to continue engaging on Feminist chat?
Over-dramatic much?! People have shown a very reasonable criticism of the post due to the constant emotional abuse they've already received from TRAs which involves being shamed for not 'being nice' ie. having opinions that counter theirs, and frankly you now seem to be doing the same. Sorry, but you don't get to have a stranglehold over the contents of a thread any more than TRA's get to control the contents of women's heads. If you want a piece purely dedicated to this that you are in total control of I suggest you write a piece on Wordpress or Medium.

CuriousaboutSamphire · 02/12/2018 15:57

You ran it out. What does that mean?

Threads go to 1000 posts before they close....

And I don't know why you think the thread is not wanted. There are quite a few of us here, responding, trying to discuss your OP!

Kesstrel that comes up a lot. But it is in response to TRA actions, which NEVER include transmen. You never see a TRA demand that TRANSMEN ARE MEN. You never see transmen stand up and demand anything from men.

Meen don't seem to have a problem having transmen in their male spaces - wonder why? Oh, yes....

But yes, Transmen are women, just as transwomen are men! But we, GC females, are not trying to speak for men. They can decide for themselves what they will and will not accept in their single sex spaces.

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